These informal interviews were carried out at the same time as the participatory element of the Responsive Dome Environment (RDE) open studio (unlike the expert practitioner interviews, which were run after the completion of the open studio). This allowed me to reflect on the expertise of these people and apply it to the iterative design of the RDE.
All interviews were conducted inside the RDE. Identifying names and information have been removed.
Interviews during RDE open studio Iteration 2
Interviews during RDE open studio Iteration 3
Autistic multi-artist (interview 2)
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Psychologist
respondent: Yeah, yep. #00:00:19-2#
interviewer: So what I found is that institutions are a bit wary of what I’m doing because it’s not evidence based. #00:00:27-2#
respondent: Okay, okay. #00:00:28-0#
interviewer: Um, which makes total sense, but I didn’t know the connection between evidence based practice and funding and… (incomprehensible) the institution… (incomprehensible) until quite recently, so I was kind of like banging my head against the wall… #00:00:43-1#
respondent: For how am I going to get these people in? #00:00:44-8#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:00:44-9#
respondent: I mean, that, that’s good though that you can… it’s about finding, finding kind of left-hand doors I suppose… #00:00:53-1#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:00:54-0#
respondent: …for finding people. #00:00:54-0#
interviewer: And I think what this will end up being is a kind of pilot study… #00:01:01-9#
respondent: Yeah, of course. #00:01:03-0#
interviewer: …and perhaps I can revisit with psychologists or scientists. #00:01:07-4#
respondent: Yeah… (incomprehensible) #00:01:09-9#
interviewer: Um, so, how it should work, um, is… the concept is, um, when I first built it, I thought I was going to work with _____ at their school, so I wanted it to be mobile and be able to fit within another space. I wanted it to feel like it was separate from the institution, like separate from the classroom… #00:01:38-1#
respondent: Yeah, yep. #00:01:38-7#
interviewer: …or whatever. #00:01:39-6#
respondent: It’s own space in itself. #00:01:41-2#
interviewer: Yeah, and so I came up with this tent idea and um, this material was designed to be projected on of some sort, so I was playing with projectors, like video, to start with. Um, but I ended up going with lights for a bunch of reasons. Um, and this is the second version of the interface that I created. The first one were these blocks – so this surface was like clear plastic, and these blocks could be moved and each side would be a different colour, and depending on what colour was facing up would trigger that coloured light… #00:02:20-2#
respondent: Ahh, wow. #00:02:21-2#
interviewer: …and you could follow it around there. But, um, I think the – it was typical kids I was working with the first time and I think that was a bit too abstract for the age group that I was looking at. #00:02:33-3#
respondent: Yep, okay. #00:02:34-0#
interviewer: Um, it was only four or five year olds, maybe a three year old. #00:02:38-9#
respondent: Okay, yeah. #00:02:39-2#
interviewer: And they kind of just enjoyed it as a space, but didn’t understand the interaction. #00:02:45-3#
respondent: The interaction part of things, yeah, that makes sense. So this is the, sort of phase two, right? #00:02:50-8#
interviewer: Yeah, so the idea was to be a lot more explicit about what triggers what and the idea is that you put in a colour (putting in block) and it’s supposed to represent each segment – each segment has three lights – I think the blue one’s a bit problematic. The red and yellow seem to work. #00:03:12-3#
respondent: Oh, wow, no way! (looking at triggered light) So it comes up and then it stays as long as those blocks are in there? #00:03:18-6#
interviewer: It should do. #00:03:20-8#
respondent: And so there’s… ohhh, okay… and then it starts to – so you can have three at one time? #00:03:28-0#
interviewer: Yeah, I’ve actually got twenty blocks, so in theory you should be able to fill the whole thing up with whatever colour you like. #00:03:36-0#
respondent: Wow. That’s fascinating. #00:03:39-3#
interviewer: So I’m hoping, since I work with kids, they get that quickly, because what I’m wanting to look at is if they understand that interaction, do they look to their parent to be a part of that? Or if they have trouble with it, do they… #00:03:56-1#
respondent: …seek, initiate, yeah, yeah, yeah. So is the idea that they are meant to – like are the instructions that they get just to play and to experience it themselves? #00:04:07-3#
interviewer: (nodding) #00:04:07-6#
respondent: Yeah, yeah. #00:04:08-0#
interviewer: Totally non-directed. So if they didn’t get it, I’m hoping that they just kind of just enjoy being in here. #00:04:13-2#
respondent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s really, I think, for me, like, cause when you were originally saying lights and I was thinking “gosh, like I wonder about the intensity of them”, but they’ve got a really muted sense because of the tent which is beautiful I think for a lot of the kids with some of the sensory issues as well. It’s actually really mesmerising to watch, particularly these three. (pointing at the tent) I like it. And so the idea is that they – do they spend a certain amount of time in here, or…? #00:04:48-4#
interviewer: Um, practically I’m, I’m filming them so (incomprehensible) …probably going to keep it to maybe ten or twenty minutes, just to keep from going through it. But there’s no reason other than the practical consideration. #00:05:05-5#
respondent: Okay. And the main things you’re looking for are the interaction with the space and then their seeking of help from someone else? #00:05:14-5#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:05:15-1#
respondent: Yep. #00:05:15-7#
interviewer: I’m really interested in whether physical interaction (incomprehensible) …not screen-based stuff, can lead to social communication. #00:05:26-2#
#00:05:27-9#
respondent: Mmm, yeah. That’s wonderful. Cause that’s half the thing is that most of the issue that we have, um, in private practice, is getting kids off iPads when they’re coming into the room. (laughing) So… #00:05:38-9#
interviewer: What’s the thinking behind iPads at the moment? #00:05:41-3#
respondent: I think it depends, because a lot of, I mean a lot the kids that I work with, their special interest is gaming, so I think… look, I mean I’ve got like a personal opinion on the use of technology with like neurotypical kids and I think that, you know, if they were given that over-stimulation early, nothing’s ever good enough and just need more and more and more. But for a lot of our um, kids on the spectrum, it’s hard because it’s a fine balance, where they actually get down-time and it forms a part of kind of emotion regulation for them. Um, and it’s their way of communicating with other people, because a lot of the kids that don’t have that social interaction, um, get it through cyberspace, whether it’s communicating with other people or (incomprehensible) …incredible, a lot of them are really good with the games. Um, but the younger ones with the iPads, obviously… it’s different, it really depends on the motivation of the parents is kind of where we, you know, where we base our sort of opinion on… (incomprehensible) #00:06:47-9#
interviewer: Is there any, um, truth to the idea that they enjoy rule-based interaction, like do they kind of expect a rule to do something… (incomprehensible) #00:07:01-7#
respondent: Yeah, well it’s… it doesn’t – yeah, there’s a certain limit on the unpredictability of it, because, yeah, they control it effectively, because it’s their finger that’s touching it, or it’s, you know, their choosing which game to play. Which, after a day of school, where they spend, you know, six hours trying to navigate that social world and be confused by the different nuances going on, they come back and they need that rule-based – as you say – kind of platform. Um, but, it really depends, because they – depending on, like they don’t interact with other people very well, so I’ve seen kids, two kids using an iPad and they become very territorial about it. So I think it does isolate them to a certain extent, because the iPad doesn’t quite allow for other people to engage with it. Um, so, and they’re not – you know – if another kid on the spectrum is watching, he’s got his own ideas on how you should be doing it or touching it, so it becomes quite um, a conflict usually arises from what we’ve seen. #00:08:12-2#
interviewer: Is there any, umm, methods used for play or any kind of physical experience to kind of direct them through that to communicate with somebody? #00:08:28-9#
respondent: To communicate with others? It’s hard, I mean particularly with kids on the spectrum, it might be that timers and that kind of thing is set up, so they’re kind of taught limits and boundaries. Or, that we – we use, I mean at our clinic, we utilise sort of drawing rather more than I supposed play-based, because the drawing enables us to build that perspective taking and kind of be able to say, “so, if you were this person and you were coming up, and your friend was not letting you join in…”, so it’s teaching them some of those social skills around the concept of the iPad if you like. Um, so for us it’s more through drawing and kind of comic strips and that sort us stuff, um, but as well, like we strongly, we do a lot of social skills groups that like, technology is completely banned – phones are banned, everything’s banned – so, effectively I guess we are just trying to teach them the skills to know that they’re isolating the other person, um more than teaching them what to do in the situation with the iPad. Yeah. #00:09:45-6#
interviewer: Have you ever used sensory rooms in your practice? #00:09:50-1#
respondent: No, so, we have, I mean we obviously have a lot of our younger kids working with OT’s, um, and ninety percent of my clients have really heightened sensory sensitivity, so it’s usually that we’ve got, um, objects in the room that will help with that, so we play with lights as well, so we’ll turn the lights off, umm, we’ve got specific music playing and some people, you know, some people struggle with the kind of classic music, whereas some people struggle with top forty music, so it’s being aware, it’s – very similarly to this (gesturing to tent) – of all of those sensory input. Um, but a lot of them have, you know, a lot my kids have got to be holding certain objects, so that they can actually engage and interact with me, or with the space that we’ve sort of set up, but not a sensory room as such. We’ve talked about it often, but it’s just one of those things in private practice, that it’s hard to get up and running. Yeah, we’ve talked about having bean bags, which they love. #00:10:59-3#
interviewer: And, if someone isn’t verbal, um, how do you kind of decide how they like or don’t like some sensory stimulus. #00:11:10-5#
respondent: Umm, usually pictures to be honest. We’ve only had a few, um, I’ve only like personally worked with a few non-verbals, because most the kids coming through us are sort of mid-to-high functioning, but the ones that have been non-verbal, it’s a lot of silence in the room, so like a lot of – you know – what I was always taught was if they’re non-verbal, you communicate with them non-verbally. So, you know, pictures on the floor, and kind of getting them to point, you know, “lights on, lights off”, and they point and kind of teaching them to communicate that way. And then slowly, um, I suppose making them feel comfortable – if they can use words – or, cause some of them that come through are more mute by choice – something’s happened to them. But, yeah, usually through flash cards, that kind of thing. Yeah. #00:12:09-5#
interviewer: I’m just trying to remember – you’ve got an appointment in the city, haven’t you? #00:12:14-1#
respondent: At 11am… (incomprehensible) #00:12:19-2#
interviewer: (incomprehensible) …have you got any questions about this? #00:12:27-3#
respondent: No, I mean, I was just going to ask – obviously the sound effect, does that change, behind there? The sound of that – is it water? Or just like, general… #00:12:35-8#
interviewer: No, I, I’ve just got that as a… as kind of a way of, um… drowning out the other sound around the space, especially during the week, there’s people coming and going. Um, and my thought was to just kind of keep this in here as a place… #00:12:53-7#
respondent: Yeah, so would you take that – if you were thinking you would take it to a school, hypothetically, would you – does the noise come with it? #00:12:59-3#
interviewer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. #00:12:59-9#
respondent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. #00:13:00-8#
interviewer: There’s also, um, as each of these lights go on, there’s kind of a xylophone “ding”, and you can, you can play keys, but because it’s triggering so quickly, it kind of just goes, “ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding…”, so it’s not going at the moment. #00:13:14-2#
respondent: (laughing) Yeah, no I like it, there’s like, I think as I said from a sensory point of view, the lights having – I’ve not, I don’t know what this material is, but… #00:13:25-3#
interviewer: It’s actually shower curtain. #00:13:26-4#
respondent: Is it really? #00:13:27-3#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:13:28-9#
respondent: Cause I was thinking it’s got the feeling of a shower curtain, but it has a, um, it’s got a feeling of privacy, but the lights are a little bit dimmed behind, which is good. But no, I was just thinking that the music is, is quite pleasant, because like, you do lose that sense of, ‘you’re inside a university campus’ kind of thing. Um, but no, the, I mean, these, these sorts of things – have you found that kids, sort of, get the, get what they have to do with the blocks? #00:14:01-0#
interviewer: I find out today. #00:14:02-1#
respondent: So this is the first time… #00:14:03-5#
interviewer: …of this interface, yeah. #00:14:05-2#
respondent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. #00:14:06-0#
interviewer: The actual physical blocks I had last time, they, well actually one kid did figure it out – a five year old girl. Um, but she was the only one – even PhD students couldn’t figure it out. #00:14:16-3#
respondent: (laughing) #00:14:16-9#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:14:17-3#
respondent: That’s what I was about to say, um, it will be interesting to see kind of, yeah, what they expect – I mean, a lot of them should because kids, when they’re younger, they get all of those, you know, those block games where you fit the square and the triangle in and stuff. Um, I don’t know if these are permanent ones, but I was just about to say that, like with some of the kids that, um, the roughness might cause an issue for them, cause like tactile-wise I have some kids that will not touch some textures, and so this is like really smooth (touching top of peg)… #00:14:50-9#
interviewer: Yep. #00:14:51-6#
respondent: …um, but this, particularly this red one (touching side of peg), I was just thinking that they’ll either love it or hate it. Um, some might be completely indifferent, but some kids I work with have got, yeah, really funny sensitivity to touch. #00:15:06-2#
interviewer: That’s interesting. I, these were done very, very quickly… #00:15:09-1#
respondent: Yep, that’s what I was thinking. I was just like, yeah, I mean I quite like the shapes, they’re cleverly made. But, no, it’s, I think… I think it’s definitely got like, somewhere to go, which is fantastic, it’s just as you say – trying to find that right avenue to get people in. Yeah. #00:15:28-4#
interviewer: I’m also quite interested to see how the autistic kids approach this interface… #00:15:35-2#
respondent: Mmm. #00:15:35-5#
interviewer: …as opposed to typical kids. I mean, just from what I read, their understanding of patterns is a lot, often a lot better. #00:15:42-8#
respondent: Mmm, mmm. #00:15:43-8#
interviewer: Um… #00:15:44-3#
respondent: Yeah, it, I mean, it will be fascinating. I’d love to, uhh, like, see what the outcomes are, cause some, you know, and it’s so dependent as well, um, their presentation – if they’ve got… like, if there’s anything that’s co-existing, like if they’ve got anxiety or something, and they come in and the foreign space, foreign objects gonna totally throw them, but some of those kids that literally just, much more gung-ho will probably be right in here and will just be straight into it. Umm, but it will be interesting – and there’s only ever one kid in here at a time? #00:16:16-5#
interviewer: And their parent. #00:16:17-0#
respondent: And their parent, okay, okay. Cause it will be interesting to see how kids reacted together. Um, is it ever gonna get to that point? Where you’ll have two… #00:16:26-4#
interviewer: Not for my PhD – there’s only another twelve months left on it. So, umm, so I won’t get that far, but it would be nice… (incomprehensible) #00:16:35-1#
respondent: Yeah, cause I guess that’s, like you were saying with the iPad, like it’d be interesting to see how they worked the space together, to change the lights and how that shared enjoyment, umm, yeah. It’s really, like, it’s really interesting. It’s completely different to what I thought. (laughing) Yeah. #00:16:56-6#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:16:57-6#
respondent: No, it’s really impressive. And I’m sorry as I said – I apologise that I haven’t had much assistance with direct recruitment, but, umm… #00:17:06-2#
interviewer: Oh, no, I totally understand. My partner is a psychologist, umm, working in, she works with adolescents and their families, and even her contacts – it’s really hard. #00:17:18-5#
respondent: Yeah, yeah. So she’s based in the city as well? #00:17:20-8#
interviewer: She’s in Marrickville. #00:17:21-3#
respondent: Okay, yeah. So really close to where I am. It’s, umm, yeah, it’s tricky. And I think because a lot of the, a lot of the time that families come in, they’re so burnt out, that that avenue can be quite exhausting for them. Which is why, as you say, finding someone that’s not already at a private practice is sometimes helpful. #00:17:42-2#
interviewer: Yeah. I think the two, two autistic children I’ve got, umm, are quite high functioning and I don’t know if they have access to services. So at least one of them said to me they’ve always kind of wanted to do something like this, but (incomprehensible) #00:18:01-6#
respondent: So how, like, what’s the age range for this? #00:18:04-2#
interviewer: At first I was looking at early intervention, but I think that’s too young. #00:18:07-4#
respondent: Yeah, yeah. #00:18:08-4#
interviewer: I think that they just don’t get the connection. Um, so the two ASD kids I’ve got are six… #00:18:14-3#
respondent: Okay, yeah. Which is at least allowing them – as you say – to interact with that space more and understand that, the connection with what they’re doing and what’s happening. Um, yeah, it will be really interesting to see what comes out of it. #00:18:28-6#
interviewer: Well, I’ll let you know. #00:18:30-7#
respondent: Yeah, it would be wonderful. Because it’s, as I said, like I, I think it would be great for us to even just have an understanding of different ways to be able to initiate sort of play and interaction with that. Because stuff like this, I mean not so much the tent, but stuff like, you know, blocks and shapes is always helpful – umm, even in private practice to have those sorts of access. #00:18:55-1#
interviewer: Yep. #00:18:55-1#
respondent: Yeah… awesome. #00:18:59-1#
interviewer: Alright… #00:18:59-7#
respondent: It’s good. #00:19:01-3#
interviewer: Thank you… #00:19:02-7#
respondent: Yeah, that’s alright. My apologies for being late again… (laughing) #00:19:06-0#
interviewer: No problem. (incomprehensible) #00:19:06-6#
respondent: (laughing) It’s amazing how many things I’ve booked into this one morning. #00:19:10-4#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:19:11-8#
—
Diversional therapist
respondent: Yep. Oh, okay. Interesting #00:01:12-2#
interviewer: At least that’s the idea. (laughing) We’ll see how it goes. I’ve got this up over the next ten days and, um… (setting up system) hopefully I’ll get some interesting results. I was supposed to have, um – there’s a PhD student in here who has Asperger’s. #00:01:32-4#
respondent: Oh okay. #00:01:33-1#
interviewer: Um, she’s really interesting – she’s fifty years old and she wasn’t diagnosed until she was forty-two… #00:01:38-8#
respondent: Wow. #00:01:39-2#
interviewer: …um, and, so she’s quite articulate, but able to kind of talk about, um, her experiences and how trying to fit into a neurotypical world has affected her. Um, so yeah, she’s really, really interesting. But, it was… this morning there was lights flashing and sounds going off and it would have been way too much for her… #00:02:04-4#
respondent: Yep. #00:02:04-8#
interviewer: …so, um… next week. Just need to reset this. (setting up system) Umm, could I get you to kind of describe what a sensory room (incomprehensible) #00:02:25-5#
respondent: Yeah. #00:02:25-7#
interviewer: (incomprehensible) #00:02:27-5#
respondent: That I use? Yeah, yep. So our room is… (incomprehensible) …it’s actually a multi-purpose room – we don’t have the space for us to have it as an individual room. So, um, it’s just like a, lounge room. #00:02:43-7#
interviewer: Sorry. (closing door to next room) #00:02:44-3#
respondent: That’s okay. (incomprehensible) #00:02:44-6#
interviewer: No, no, I’ll just close this… #00:02:47-7#
respondent: Um, a lounge room that’s been converted. So it’s repainted this, um, a pale blue colour, that is quite a calming and relaxing colour. Um, had to leave the TV in there…um… #00:03:01-6#
interviewer: Is there a reason that you left the TV in there? #00:03:05-3#
respondent: Um, one is that, um, we have to have two separate spaces that we can sort of separate patients to. The other is that we do use the TV as part of, um, the sensory. So, um, we have the DVDs where they’ve got the campfires and the rainforests and the aquariums. #00:03:22-8#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:03:24-0#
respondent: So we can use that as, um, a visual stimuli. #00:03:26-8#
interviewer: Yep. #00:03:27-2#
respondent: Um, we have bean bags, we’ve got a therapy rocker, um, the big, um, gym balls, um, set up in there for the different seating options. Um, we have all sensory, um, fidget equipment. So we’ve got different, um, balls – like stress balls – so different textures, um, different sort of… some that are really hard, some that are really soft. Um, we’ve got massagers… #00:03:55-8#
interviewer: As in, uhh, a device, massage device. #00:03:59-6#
respondent: So, yeah, some of them are like the vibrating massages, others are the sort of like the hand-held roller one, um… We have weighted equipment, so we have a weighted blanket, um, we have a weighted neck roll, um, a weighted pad and weighted stuffed animals. #00:04:18-6#
interviewer: Okay. And so all of the stuff you’re describing… I would imagine as stereotypically used in autism… #00:04:29-4#
respondent: Yeah, so, um, we do an assessment – we do a sensory profile measure on all the patients that come in. #00:04:35-5#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:04:36-0#
respondent: Umm, so that basically tells us what their sensory preferences are. So, um, whether, um, they’re more, um, vis… they’ve got like a higher need for visual stimulation, whether, um, their, um, what is it? Their sound, whether their sort of like, they seek sensory input, whether they’re quite low-registering, so they don’t notice unless there’s a lot of input, um, and what their level of, um, sensitivity to it is as well. Um… #00:05:11-0#
interviewer: And, so even though you do a sensory profile, they’re not necessarily autistic. #00:05:18-7#
respondent: No. So everyone sort of, get’s that. Um, basically because everyone has their own sensory profile. And so we can sort of tailor the equipment we offer to them in the room and other skills, um, that’s sort of like the best way to get that… #00:05:35-9#
interviewer: And… (setting up system) Sorry, I’m just wandering around. Um, it seems like a bit of dark art – the sensory profiles. It’s not – is it quantitative in any way? #00:05:50-2#
respondent: Yes, so it’s, um, it was, um… it has been tested against both typical kids and kids, um, with disabilities. #00:06:01-5#
interviewer: Okay. #00:06:03-0#
respondent: Um, from what I can gather when I’ve researched it, they didn’t say how many autistic kids were tested, but I would assume a high population of them were… autistic. Cause that’s kind of where the, the whole sensory modulation ideas came from, was from kids with disabilities in autism. #00:06:23-0#
interviewer: Yep. #00:06:23-5#
respondent: So, yeah, our room’s very, um, adaptive, because we get so many different kids in. Um, so we have to be able to – so looking at it, it’s quite plain, but all of the equipment stores away, so we can pull it out whenever we need it. (long pause) We do have a projector, which I don’t think we use as often as we should, um, that will project images onto the walls for those that like that. #00:06:52-7#
interviewer: Do you use specific lighting at all? #00:06:56-0#
respondent: Umm, the, the problem with the room is that it doesn’t have any way to block the light out, so we’ve put, um, a… oh, what do you call it… on the windows, a tint on the windows. Umm, and obviously, um, we’ve got the, the dimmer switches on the lights, but unfortunately in the middle of the day, um, you can’t block that completely – the hospital won’t let us put shutters… #00:07:27-8#
interviewer: Oh, okay. Is that a safety thing, or… #00:07:30-7#
respondent: Umm, I think it’s just a money thing for them. (laughing) #00:07:33-2#
interviewer: Fair enough. #00:07:34-1#
interviewer: (very long pause, whilst checking system) Okay, it’s not… no, it’s still triggering more than I wanted it to. But the idea is, each of the panels has three lights on them and it’s represented by three holes and by putting a peg in, I should get a coloured light in the same position… (trying peg) But I am not. #00:08:18-1#
interviewer: (trying pegs) No, this… there’s all sorts of things going on. Well that one actually worked. #00:08:30-0#
interviewer: (resetting system camera for some time; system sounds running in background) #00:09:25-0#
interviewer: I think it’s going to be a longer fix. (laughing) #00:09:25-7#
interviewer: Um… yeah, so it’s supposed to be a kind of meditative, sort of, relaxing space. Um, I guess… on some level it’s a little bit, like a… task-based… #00:09:55-7#
respondent: Yep. #00:09:56-8#
interviewer: …um, interaction as well. Um, do you ever do, give them tasks to do in the sensory room, or is it totally self-directed? #00:10:09-1#
respondent: No, so it depends. Um, quite often it is, um, sort of, self-led: we ask them what they’d like to do. Um, and it’s kind of – for us, it’s scripted – we call it scripted – cause we go through, “how does this feel? how does it make you feel? what sensations are you feeling on your body?” Um, but we’re working with a very high-functioning population a lot of the time. Um, for the autistic kids we get through a lot of the time it’s just about letting them explore the environment and what they like. Um, sometimes they can’t necessarily verbalise, they just know they like something, um, and they’ll sort of seek that one thing out… #00:10:51-0#
interviewer: Do you ever… I’ve heard the term “sabotage” being used with autism… #00:10:56-5#
respondent: (laughing) #00:10:58-1#
interviewer: …it sounds, yeah, have you heard of that as well? #00:10:59-9#
respondent: In… they, like self-sabotage, or…? #00:11:02-2#
interviewer: No, in, um… ahh, so if a therapist is working with a child and they seem to really like something… um, they, they might be carrying out some repetitive… um… it, it’s not a bad thing – the child is doing something good, but they take it away to encourage a further behaviour…? #00:11:25-8#
respondent: Umm… I suppose we mostly look at if, if there’s the possibility that it’s, it’s, the behaviour is excessive and becoming a sort of, part of a ritual and becoming ritualistic. So, um, if they’re seeking out one thing, and one thing alone, and it’s, that becomes part of their routine to have that, we kind of discourage that a little bit. So you know with autistic kids they have to have set routines, but um, we want the routine as sort of fluid as we can, so changes that have to happen aren’t going to throw them too far off, off course. So, bringing in, like, what seems like a tiny little ritual can actually be a huge throw off for them, because it’s part of their routine, it’s part of their structure, if it’s suddenly taken away, um, it really throws them off and we get what people see as temper tantrums and all that carrying on. So um, I suppose it’s not necessarily sabotaging I don’t think, I’d say it’s trying to sort of direct their attention somewhere else – trying to make sure it’s not becoming an obsessed… #00:12:39-1#
interviewer: Um, and what sort of technologies do you use in the sensory room, other than the television? #00:12:44-9#
respondent: Um, we have the projector, um, and music. That’s probably the… biggest, #00:12:51-1#
interviewer: You don’t use iPads or anything like that? #00:12:51-7#
respondent: Um, we do have an iPad. Um, the, the trouble is, for um, a lot of our kids, when they’re quite distressed, things get thrown, #00:13:01-1#
interviewer: Yep. #00:13:01-0#
respondent: …and iPads are very expensive to replace. (laughing) Um, cheap MP3 players and speakers aren’t so bad. So yeah, we do use the iPad with kids, like, if we can see they’re escalating, and especially with some of the kids we get through and, um, the iPad’s already part of their school routine, or routine at home, we either get the parent to bring in the iPad and they’re given their set of hours for their iPad… #00:13:26-7#
interviewer: Why do you think that the iPad is useful (incomprehensible) #00:13:31-2#
respondent: Um… (thinking) #00:13:33-7#
interviewer: They seem to be used a lot (incomprehensible) #00:13:35-4#
respondent: Yeah. It is, I think it’s, it widens the variety of things you can do with them. Um, where before, you’d have to have a lot of different equipment, where the iPad’s sort of got a lot of stuff on it and it’s one device. Um, I know, um, in other therapies they use the iPad quite a lot for communication devices now. So it’s replaced some of the older, um, speaking devices. #00:14:00-9#
interviewer: Like the Picture Exchange System… #00:14:03-0#
respondent: Yeah, so, or they, they use it, um, instead of having (incomprehensible) cards, cause, instead of having a book that holds ten cards, they have an iPad that holds an unlimited amount. #00:14:12-9#
interviewer: Yep. #00:14:13-5#
respondent: Um, it’s, it’s that interaction as well. Um, although with autistic kids, we, we like to have them see interaction with people, it’s a safe interaction as well, to get them, um, there’s a lot of apps you can get teaching social skills – so what’s appropriate, what’s not appropriate… Um, learning to do simple things like brush your teeth and wash your hands – it’s all there on the iPad. #00:14:38-7#
interviewer: (trying to get system to work) #00:14:43-1#
respondent: (laughing) #00:14:43-5#
interviewer: What should we do here? Well this isn’t – the interaction itself is… (incomprehensible) Um, I think I might be here late again tonight. (resetting system)… #00:15:19-1#
respondent: And then when you use the pegs around, the lights…? #00:15:21-8#
interviewer: So there’s – yeah – they’re full-colour lights, so, back on the inside… you can kind of see how each panel’s divided up into three. And, I may find this again with the (incomprehensible), but last time it was just a flat surface with blocks, so as you move each block around, the light would kind of follow it in a way. #00:15:47-7#
respondent: Yep. #00:15:47-6#
interviewer: Um, but I, I definitely found that the kids weren’t realising that what they were doing here, (gesturing to interface) was having an effect over here (gesturing to tent surface), um, but I’m hoping that this is just a little bit clearer. But perhaps not. But, do you… I know you’re aren’t specifically working in autism, but… #00:16:09-9#
respondent: Yep. #00:16:09-7#
interviewer: …um, do you find that it’s difficult to get children to… I don’t know, I can’t think of a better term or work – realise their affect in the world? #00:16:23-7#
respondent: Um… depending on their level of functioning… um, some kids who are autistic are quite concrete thinkers. So, abstract ideas, like foreign and hard to grasp, so… um… I could, I could understand how they, they would see putting a peg in there changes the light, but whether the, that abstract idea behind it is something they could grasp – I’m not sure. Um… I don’t know – affecting their environment – I’d say to some extent do, but they, they’re so, some of them are quite, sort of don’t understand social functioning and um, social cues are so foreign to them, that I don’t think they quite grasp that abstract concept. So, um… What we think as normal everyday things like making eye contact and saying “hello”, is quite unusually for some of them. #00:17:38-2#
interviewer: Yeah. Yep. Um… do you use interaction, I guess of any sort really, to, um, as a, almost like a medium for social communication? So, um, would you encourage them to do something here (gesturing to interface) in some way which somehow gets them to express, or engage with another person? #00:18:01-7#
respondent: Um, so, I wouldn’t necessarily use something like this. (gesturing to interface) So we probably do a lot of social training, so it would be practicing, so, um, getting them to sit down and, you know, you need to make eye contact with me for ten seconds, um, while you tell me something that’s happened today. Um, and then, doing that – okay, now you can go, talk to someone else – you need to make eye contact with them for five seconds. Um… yeah. Or, you know, going and, um, even sometimes using manners is quite an abstract… #00:18:38-9#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:18:40-4#
respondent: …because for them, they’re just telling me what they need. There’s, they don’t understand “please” and “thank you’s”, just… #00:18:45-6#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:18:45-9#
respondent: (incomprehensible) Um, so it would be practicing, like, if you want breakfast in the morning, how do you ask for your breakfast. #00:18:51-7#
interviewer: Mmm, hmm. #00:18:52-3#
respondent: Yeah. Um, yeah, so for a lot of them it’s, it’s social training. Um… I think for a calming environment, and meeting their sensory needs, I think this would be really good. Um… #00:19:10-4#
interviewer: Do you have any thoughts on, um… the confined space? #00:19:17-1#
respondent: Um, for me, it’s a little bit confining, um – that’s just my own need for space. Um, it, it, it’s an individual thing. Like, um, you get a lot of kids who are autistic that don’t like loud noises, and um, will sit there with their iPods turned full up and their headphones on – it’s, it’s the type of noise that they’re going to hear. #00:19:40-4#
interviewer: Okay. #00:19:41-0#
respondent: Um, so again, it’s, it’s gonna be very individual I’d say. The same with the lights and the sound. Um, you’re gonna get some kids that, that are gonna be okay with the lights and then some kids aren’t. #00:19:54-9#
interviewer: Mmm. #00:19:55-2#
respondent: Yep. And it’s hard to, um, to sort of say “yes” or “no”, cause they’re so individual on some of them. #00:20:05-3#
interviewer: Yeah, yeah, totally. #00:20:06-3#
respondent: And, they’re usually very quick – I’ve found – with being able to say whether or not they like something. #00:20:12-9#
interviewer: Yep. I suppose it’s a fairly kind of extreme reaction, isn’t it? #00:20:18-1#
respondent: Yeah, yeah. Um, with, I mean, I supposed with anyone, when you don’t like something, you don’t like it and, and um, to them, quietness isn’t, something, sort of, if they don’t like it, they’ll tell you quite bluntly, “no”. (laughing) #00:20:31-5#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:20:32-0#
respondent: Um… So, yeah. You’d find that, they, if the space was an issue, they either wouldn’t come in, or their first reaction would be to walk out straight away. (incomprehensible) the lights. And if they couldn’t escape, they, you’d sort of start to see some behaviours. #00:20:48-0#
interviewer: Yep. Okay, it’s, it’s too bad it’s not going to work at all today. (pause) Um, what else would be useful…? (pause) Um, if this was something that, um, you could use within your own practice, is it something that, um, you would need to slowly introduce, or do you think, um, you know, it could come and be set up one day and not return for weeks? #00:21:28-2#
respondent: Um, I think like that… We get, quite often, quite a high turnover. So, um, the average length of stay for us for patients is three weeks. #00:21:39-7#
interviewer: Okay. #00:21:40-9#
respondent: So, um, um, so we do tend to get a high turnover and we go through waves of things, so, um, you get kids that really, really like music and you get kids that really, really like to journal and then you get kids that really like art and craft and then (incomprehensible) …it kind of goes it waves. Um, so I could see this being used where I work with no problem. Because I think that it’s a very calming space, even taking out the pegs and just having the lights, it is, it is calming. And I don’t know if it’s able to, but maybe if you were able to set it at just one set colour, um… #00:22:26-4#
interviewer: So you think as, just as a passive space, it would be effective? #00:22:32-7#
respondent: Yep. Um, some kids like the sort of, a more contained environment. #00:22:40-3#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:22:41-2#
respondent: It makes them feel safe, it, if it’s… the more contained they feel sometimes, the safer they feel. Um, so I would definitely think that it would be seen as a safe space for a lot of them. Um, but on the same breath, there’s some kids that wouldn’t like it, because it’s contained. #00:23:01-3#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:23:02-2#
respondent: Um, and I could see it being used either, like, like individually like, when you have individual sessions with kids, um – even in a more of a group situation where you want a calming environment. #00:23:16-4#
interviewer: Okay. So you would actually work the kids within this space? #00:23:22-4#
respondent: Yep. So, we quite often, like, run sensory groups and, and it’s, um, (incomprehensible) or it’s, we take the equipment to another room and we use it there. Um, but even I think, um, as another space that the kids can go to when they, they want a bit of entertainment, when they want a bit of time out from the world… it would be useful. #00:23:51-2#
interviewer: Great. Um, okay. That’s probably – without seeing it in action… #00:24:02-9#
respondent: (laughing) #00:24:03-2#
interviewer: …probably all we can chat about. Any other thoughts? #00:24:06-7#
respondent: …I think it’s useful… I wouldn’t necessarily limit yourself to autistic kids – I would look at other populations too. Um, so, um… (pause) I’m just trying to think… So mental, I mean, I’m quite pro-mental health, um, but one mental health is one area that, um, it would be useful for. Um, looking at other disabilities as well, so kids with, um, developmental delays and intellectual disabilities as well. Um, and, and sometimes those kids also would benefit from the pegs… #00:24:54-5#
interviewer: Okay. #00:24:56-2#
respondent: …and, um, yeah. And seeing if they can learn to see that, um, whether moving the pegs changes the lights and grasping that concept of changing their environment. #00:25:07-7#
interviewer: Yep. (pause) Yeah, great. I guess, um, Diversional Therapy is only something I’ve very recently come across, so, um, I had a quick look at the Diversional Therapy Australia website – that’s where I found you – and saw the range of people you work with in Diversional Therapy, um, and I think that, um, it has a lot in common with what my approach… #00:25:42-9#
respondent: Yeah, so even, I’ve never worked in dementia, except for placements when at uni. But even looking at people with dementia – especially those that are starting to regress – um, sensory is used quite a lot now in aged care for those people. Um, a little bit differently than it is for kids obviously. But, um, yeah, I could even see, um, you’d have to, you’d have to find someone that works specifically with dementia patients, but I would assume there’s a possibility, um, for those people too. #00:26:26-4#
interviewer: Okay. Great. That gives me another PhD to do. (laughing) #00:26:33-0#
respondent: (laughing) #00:26:35-1#
interviewer: Alright. #00:26:36-2#
respondent: Maybe it’s more just (incomprehensible) #00:26:38-8#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:26:39-5#
respondent: (incomprehensible) But yeah, I wasn’t sure what it was going to be, but I really like it. #00:26:46-8#
interviewer: It’s… there’s something nice about it as an object. Um, I don’t know how successful it is in terms of… like, what I’ve designed it for – for autistic children. Um, but yeah, we’ve got a couple coming in over the next week, so, that’ll be interesting – if I can get it to work. #00:27:08-5#
respondent: Yeah. (laughing) It’s usually the way. #00:27:11-1#
—
Teacher
respondent: Sure thing. Is that enough, or would you like me to speak more? #00:00:08-8#
interviewer: No, that’s good. Mine’s not great though… (pause) One, one, one, one, wah, wah, wah… (testing microphone) #00:00:18-2#
respondent: (laughing) (pause) You’re not seeing anyone after this, are you? #00:00:29-6#
interviewer: Nah, I’m going home… #00:00:30-7#
respondent: Nice. Sorry I couldn’t get in earlier. #00:00:34-4#
interviewer: Oh, that’s okay. I will be glad… (incomprehensible) #00:00:42-7#
respondent: Yeah. #00:00:43-0#
interviewer: It’s been quite stressful. #00:00:45-5#
respondent: Yeah. #00:00:46-1#
interviewer: Um, _____ been doing everything herself at home. #00:00:50-4#
respondent: How is she, is she feeling better? #00:00:54-6#
interviewer: Umm… yeah – you heard her grandfather died last week? #00:00:59-6#
respondent: No, _____ said that, um… yesterday. #00:01:02-7#
interviewer: Umm, he died on Wednesday. So, she’s been kind of… still a bit queasy with that food poisoning stuff, but, um… (pause) Yeah, I think it’s… #00:01:18-3#
respondent: Oh, that really knocked her around, didn’t it? #00:01:20-0#
interviewer: …it really did. But, I think her grandfather has really got to her a lot more than she realises. #00:01:28-1#
respondent: Yeah. Is this her mum’s dad? #00:01:30-5#
interviewer: Yeah – in Port Macquarie. #00:01:31-6#
respondent: She was going up to look after him and stuff? #00:01:34-0#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:01:34-3#
respondent: Yeah. #00:01:34-8#
interviewer: Alright, come inside… Um, _____ molars have been coming through, so it’s all happening. #00:01:45-7#
respondent: Old toothy pegs. #00:01:46-5#
interviewer: Yeah. (pause) Um, so when the kids come in, they come in through that door and I don’t give them any direction at all – they just come straight in and, um, what I’ve found is that everybody knows exactly what ‘peg hole’ means. I, they can immediately see that that’s the task, or the way of, you know, playing with it. Um, the idea with this interface is that each of these segments is broken up into three lights… that you can see is not working – as it should be coming up there. (gesturing to tent) (pause) Umm… when it was working last weekend, I had a high-functioning boy with autism come in and he just sat here and looked straight at it and wanted to fill up all the holes with pegs and, like, he didn’t pay any attention to what was going on, on the, um, on the tent. Umm, and then afterwards I go back out there with the parent and the child and we kind of talk about what happened and we watch the video back, and all of a sudden he kind of pipes up and goes, “yeah – yellow peg equals yellow light”. So he totally knew what was happening, but he just didn’t appear to be paying attention. So that was pretty interesting. (pause) Umm… Almost universally, they seem to be really calm in this space. I haven’t had any… all the kids I’ve had have all been high-functioning – all been in mainstream school. #00:03:51-7#
respondent: Yep. #00:03:52-2#
interviewer: Um… so none of them have them have really been much of a cross-section. So far it’s been fairly positive… #00:04:05-0#
respondent: Yeah? What have you… what comments have you gotten out of the kids apart from that one boy? #00:04:11-9#
interviewer: Umm… Generally they really like the background noise… um… and that the space seems to be, kind of containing and it makes it feel separate from the room that we’re in… #00:04:29-4#
respondent: Mmm hmm. #00:04:29-8#
interviewer: …um, which is the idea, so that’s great. The interaction hasn’t worked today, so I haven’t really been able to really take much from what people say today, but, um, although, all of the kids do seem to be trying to figure out how it works. Whereas that boy last week – when it was working properly – didn’t, was the only one that kind of didn’t really seem to show interest, but he definitely knew how it worked. #00:05:06-0#
respondent: Yep. #00:05:06-9#
interviewer: Um… I’ve had a woman in here who’s a PhD student with Aspergers… #00:05:14-6#
respondent: Mmm hmm. #00:05:15-4#
interviewer: …and she, umm, is attracted to sensory – umm, to auditory stimulus; she’s got perfect pitch. #00:05:27-0#
respondent: Mmm hmm. #00:05:27-6#
interviewer: And she’s not so interested in the lights – they don’t seem to bother her, but, um, she kind of sees this as a bit of a music puzzle and just wants to play it like an instrument. #00:05:40-7#
respondent: (long pause) Yeah, that’s really interesting, that, just to think how this, I don’t know – straight away I see it as, like I wouldn’t even necessarily pick up on the changing auditory input. I would pick up immediately on the lights, um… So, yeah, it would be interesting just to see how it does, um, like impact people’s strengths and… yeah. #00:06:21-5#
interviewer: (moving interface camera) #00:06:24-0#
respondent: Is that reset? (laughing) So with these – if these are empty (gesturing to peg holes), should this be… #00:06:35-3#
interviewer: No light. #00:06:36-2#
respondent: …no light. Okay. So if I put… #00:06:39-3#
interviewer: If you put a green one in there (gesturing to peg hole), a green one should… (gesturing to tent) #00:06:43-8#
respondent: Should come up. #00:06:44-5#
interviewer: The green is basically not working at all; the red is seems to be getting in this feedback loop; the yellow one is kind of hit and miss. #00:06:53-7#
respondent: So, with a mix in there (gesturing to peg holes), is it a multiple colour – like it will then cycle through the… #00:07:00-6#
interviewer: It won’t cycle – each of these segments has three lights on them: and there’s two at the bottom, one at the top. #00:07:08-2#
respondent: Okay. #00:07:08-8#
interviewer: And so that would be the two bottom lights (gesturing to peg holes) and that would be the top. #00:07:11-8#
respondent: Okay. #00:07:12-1#
interviewer: Um, so if you had a green one and a yellow one and nothing… (incomprehensible) #00:07:17-4#
respondent: Okay. So they’d all come on at the same time? #00:07:26-7#
interviewer: They’d be on for as long as the peg was in there… #00:07:29-0#
respondent: Yep. Yeah, cool. #00:07:30-2#
interviewer: …and then you take it out and the light is off. (pause) The blue one, when I was setting it up, I had a lot of trouble with it because it’s such a dark colour… #00:07:42-2#
respondent: Yeah. #00:07:43-1#
interviewer: Um, and so, I took them away, but then I put one – just the one blue one here to see what would happen. And that was actually one of the most interesting things, because it didn’t work, but it would, but by leaving it here, it would force them to ask what was wrong, or ask for help, or, um, try and figure it out. And there’s also two less pegs than there are holes – it’s the same thing. So, with the, the boy last week – he wanted to fill up all the holes, but he couldn’t. #00:08:20-2#
respondent: Mmm. #00:08:21-0#
interviewer: And so, by kind of sabotaging him a bit, it forced him to keep interacting. #00:08:26-4#
respondent: Yep. #00:08:26-9#
interviewer: Um, it was a kind of happy accident. #00:08:30-6#
respondent: Mmm. Yeah, that’s interesting. (long pause) Have you had many therapists in? Were the three today all therapists? #00:08:48-5#
interviewer: Ahh, there was no therapists today – I’ve had a psych; a Diversional Therapist; and, um, I was supposed to have an OT, but I don’t think she’s going to show. #00:09:02-7#
respondent: Okay. And what’s been their general feedback? #00:09:08-8#
interviewer: Ahh, the psych was really interested, um… she was kind of interested in this (gesturing to interface table) just as a, as its own object, as something that could possibly be used in private practice. Um, I don’t know how that would be supported by – cause the sound and the light are a big part of the whole process. Um… #00:09:33-6#
respondent: Is it just then a task? #00:09:36-0#
interviewer: I guess, but that doesn’t – it, it sort of, um, is like any other block and hole task. #00:09:45-2#
respondent: Like a puzzle. #00:09:45-4#
interviewer: Yeah. Um… The Diversional Therapist found the space more interesting as, um, a space which could be good for relaxation and group therapy. #00:10:05-8#
respondent: Yep. #00:10:06-5#
interviewer: Um, so she was kind of the reverse: she wasn’t so interested in the interaction, more of it just being a, like a… passive space. #00:10:17-1#
respondent: Yep. Yeah, there’s some, like, really interesting, it’s like, anecdotal – I don’t know how much research has actually been done into it, around, um, people with autism in learning environments like this, where it, um, like, interactive projection and stuff like that. Um, and there’s feedback, that it really, um, well it’s engaging, but it, like, people note like increasing speech and expressive communication. Um, just because it’s a different way of learning really, and, um, and when you’re immersed in something, distractions are taken away and there’s, like, that really what you then have to focus on and I think that’s why I like this (gesturing to interface table), cause it’s very clear the task, like, if we were designing anything work-wise for our kids, it’s always with the – in mind, like having visual clarity in what they have to do, cause there’s a real, um, often a blockage with people knowing when, like, how to start a task and so the more clear the instruction is presented within the task, then the more likely they are to attempt it. So it’s very obvious what you do here and then, like I’d almost see it that the interaction is then the learning out of it. Like, so, that cause and effect, so looking at, like, early play skills and… yeah, hmm. #00:12:00-2#
interviewer: Do you have a sensory room at the moment? (incomprehensible) #00:12:05-4#
respondent: No. Not at, um, our school, no. We do, um, there’s a one locally that we will visit, but it’s more excursion-based, it’s not, like it wouldn’t be used necessarily as a therapy style space. Umm… #00:12:25-3#
interviewer: And what’s the setup, is it sort of like a Snoezelen room type thing? #00:12:30-6#
respondent: Nah, not that one, no. It’s, kind of, I guess it’s really, um, split up into almost individual sense activity, so you’ll go and do something around hearing or something that’s visual, or, um, something based on gross motor and that movement… #00:12:57-2#
interviewer: And is it sort of physical objects? #00:12:59-0#
respondent: Yeah. #00:13:00-2#
interviewer: Any technology? #00:13:01-5#
respondent: Ahh, no. No. There’s one that I used in a special school in London that was, um, kinda technology based. It was a very dark room, so it was a lot around, it was more working with, um, kids with profound learning difficulties, so kids with CP and, um, so it was definitely more on that, like, large, um, large action – so it was big reactions, so big lights – dark to light and thing like that. Um, but I think it’s the hard thing with autism, is that like it, it, the way that someone will interact through their senses is so different from child to child – there’s no real, um, like you can’t generalise it. And so, one thing that might be really stimulating for one person, like, could be totally different for another and they might get defensive in it and, um, just, so… I guess if you’re looking at this space for, if you could kind of develop different profiles, then you’d be able to know whether it was something that they were going to interact with and, not kind of flip out in as well. So, though this is, it like, you said in your feedback, it is a very calming space and the lights aren’t, um, their not offensive, like it, it’s soft, it’s muted, so, you’d probably find in general that it wouldn’t be a kind of space that people would… not like. (pause) It would be interesting to see how some kids reacted to the enclosure though, like being enclosed. I that it’s a big enough space so that wouldn’t… #00:15:17-0#
interviewer: Cause I haven’t had any kids like that who… #00:15:22-9#
respondent: …like, even entering might be difficult. Like, for some students. I think cause it’s light in here though, that it wouldn’t be that hard and I’ve worked with students that wouldn’t go into dark spaces and really… #00:15:42-8#
interviewer: And what sort of, of aversion is that – is it to do with visual or more a tactile, kind of bodily… #00:15:52-0#
respondent: Um, yeah, possibly just not knowing what’s in there. It may not even be a, like… I guess it all links back to sensory input, but I, it, I think it’s just more not knowing and not having it explained – what’s going to happen – but it’s not, I wouldn’t say that it would necessarily be a sensory thing. More just, like, apprehension around not having the information and not being able to, like, when you look at, um, the way that some people think, like, they’re not able to see, like, the big picture and everything that’s in that environment and, um… and then not able to sequence particularly well either, so they may not, like it might just come across as being a bit of a… I don’t know how to explain it. Like, if they’re not given that forewarning, then it would be quite intimidating… I guess. #00:17:03-5#
interviewer: (pause) Hmm. So… it’s a shame we never got to get a larger group of kids. #00:17:12-9#
respondent: Mmm, yeah. I think it’d be interesting, like, what I’d be interested in seeing is the, um, like what I was saying before: just feedback around kind of using interactive projections and stuff like that and whether presenting something in just a totally different way and making it immersive can increase things around language and… #00:17:40-4#
interviewer: Well, hopefully, um, it becomes enough to become kind of a pilot study for working on a larger scale. #00:17:50-6#
respondent: Hmm, yeah it’d be cool. #00:17:52-4#
interviewer: You know, with some psychologists, or… (incomprehensible) #00:18:00-7#
respondent: Yeah, it’d be great. #00:18:04-9#
interviewer: Umm… I’m not really at my tippy top best today. #00:18:12-7#
respondent: That’s okay – join the club. #00:18:14-7#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:18:16-0#
respondent: (laughing) It’s quite relaxing just sitting in here. (laughing) #00:18:21-3#
interviewer: Umm… You use iPads a lot in the classroom, don’t you? #00:18:28-4#
respondent: Yep. #00:18:28-7#
interviewer: What’s the thought behind giving iPads as opposed – I know they’re used for, like, Picture Exchange System software and – is there any other thinking behind them, other than they’re just a practical tool? #00:18:41-4#
respondent: Umm… I think… um… It just seems to be a way of drawing a lot of kids in. And it’s not for everyone – like, not all kids get into it at all, but, um… so, like with the example of using picture exchange as a communication system, like, kind of traditionally you would have folders with, like, visuals that kids have to exchange, so it involves a bit manipulation – they’re having to then, um, like, yeah – it’s kind of, like, really relying on a little bit of fine motor control and some kids really, like, find that using the iPad is just easier in terms of them, like, I guess it’s almost motor planning and they, um, you know, cause the same way that we can type without looking at the keyboard, they can often just learn the motor plans around communicating a lot easier and, like, around what they want to say a lot easier. Um, and it also has the speech inbuilt into it, which, um, traditionally they’d rely on whoever they were communicating with to repeat that, so it’s actually a bit more, like, of their own voice, rather than hearing it from somebody else. Um… #00:20:17-5#
interviewer: Are there any, umm… apps, or anything like that that are just like an aesthetic experience? #00:20:27-4#
respondent: Umm… (pause) With them interacting with it, or just for them looking at it? #00:20:37-3#
interviewer: Oh, either actually. #00:20:38-2#
respondent: Umm, there’s some ones that we use for handwriting or, and, like, I guess more – not necessarily even handwriting, but um, that link between you, your hands actually being able to do stuff – I think where it has been applied in our class is in handwriting, um, called Headpad, where it’s, just, wherever you touch turns into different colours, so they’ll use it for letter writing and things like that. Umm… (pause) …trying to think what else would be used just for that. And, like, it’s hard because we’re trying to push the teachers to use them for academic purposes and to, like, line up with their programs, so, like it’s trying to get them away from game-based stuff and so, really, we haven’t explored, um, just aesthetic things, although it would probably be a good way of, like, using it for, like, as a calming sort of strategy, you know, when kids are starting to escalate in their anxiety or behaviour. #00:22:06-3#
interviewer: What’s the reasoning for getting away from gaming? #00:22:10-6#
respondent: Umm… It’s a really fine line with what sort of games people choose in the classroom and we’re, umm, have found that often games that are quite violent are, like, coming in (laughing) unintentionally, and so it was just, had, it had to be a bit of a blanket, um, rule I guess. And also, like, there are some really great apps that they, um, that are available to compliment your teaching, so, rather than only ever playing, um, games to practice – which is really important as well, but they’re not really teaching concept, um – like, we’re trying to get the teachers to use some different apps that will be in addition to the teaching strategies that they’re already using in class. Like, there’s some really great, um, like, apps that we use just for brainstorming and visually, like, kinda organising information for writing texts and things like that, that can all be done, um, on the iPads and they’re, it’s great, cause you can, um, really differentiate for the class that you’re in, like if you’ve got non-writers and students that are only, kind of, able to, um, comprehend, um, picture texts and things like that, then you can incorporate that, like they can, um, have that as well as written texts, so it’s a really way to differentiate for the whole class, so that they’re all involved in the same lesson, rather than having to do, like, potentially six different programs, so… Um, yeah, so it’s not to say that we won’t have, like, use games in the classroom – and, like, they still do use games and that, don’t get me wrong, it’s not that they’re not allowed to use them, but we’re just really trying to encourage the teachers to be a bit, um… creative with their instruction as well and, just recognise that it can be a, um, really great tool to engage in students in a lesson that maybe traditionally would have been like a ‘talk and chalk’ sort of lesson, so, umm… yeah, that’s kind of the push at the moment. But there’s also, like, we’ve got a guy that’s done a lot research around using iPads and, like, he’s newest thing at the moment is this little robot ball that you can, um, guide with the iPad and he’s had, like, kids that have quite high support needs moving this robot around the kitchen garden and stuff. And so he uses it to, um, for them to map, like, paths in the garden and then can go up and, um… He’s done a whole thing recently on doing, like, visual arts with it as well, like, you’re just wrapping it up and rolling it around in paint and stuff like that, so, he’s done some cool things. It’s all – he’s just released a whole heap of books on, um, that sort of stuff, and he’s really into Minecraft and using that in the classroom as well, which is cool – it’s… it’s good, I need to figure out whether you can get Minecraft without the zombies… #00:26:08-8#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:26:09-9#
respondent: …and then maybe we’ll be allowed to use it. But, I doubt – yeah, so… I don’t know. And apart from – like, anything else, um, iPads are just so accessible, like, their features are just – anybody can pick them up and use them – it’s, um… and that in itself is really great, it means that it can have, as useful application for one of our students in a high support needs class as it would for a student in our high school classes. #00:26:43-2#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:26:43-4#
respondent: Mmm. I can give you the details of that guy, if you want? #00:26:52-1#
interviewer: Yeah, that’d be interesting… #00:26:53-0#
respondent: Yeah. Yep. He’s, um, released them all for free as iBooks as well, so… #00:26:59-2#
interviewer: Oh, wow. That’s cool. #00:27:00-9#
respondent: Yeah, he’s not about making cash, which is nice. #00:27:04-0#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:27:05-1#
respondent: And Apple just throw stuff at him, so he gets heaps of cool stuff to play with; like, he’s an Apple Educator, so… hmm. (pause) Did kids try to lift the lid at times? #00:27:18-4#
interviewer: Yeah, but the parents intervened. #00:27:19-4#
respondent: Oh, right. #00:27:20-1#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:27:21-0#
respondent: Yeah. #00:27:21-8#
interviewer: I might switch off the equipment… #00:27:25-0#
respondent: Were you happy about that? #00:27:25-9#
interviewer: That the parents intervened? #00:27:27-7#
respondent: Yeah. (laughing) Or were you kind of expecting that it would happen? #00:27:31-6#
interviewer: I was expecting that it would happen. Um, it’s… (incomprehensible) #00:27:37-6#
respondent: Yeah. #00:27:38-0#
interviewer: Um… I think it’s nice to see that they’re interested in, sort of, seeing how it works. #00:27:43-7#
respondent: Yeah, yep. I think it’s, um, would have been kind of cool to see what they did if they did get in there. #00:27:50-5#
interviewer: (laughing) Yeah. Well, last time a couple of kids did get in there and they just spent, sort of, twenty minutes with their heads stuck in the box. #00:27:57-7#
respondent: Yeah. #00:27:58-7#
—
Autistic multi-artist
respondent: Okay, is that water? #00:00:18-7#
interviewer: That’s perfect. #00:00:20-4#
respondent: I love that sound. #00:00:22-9#
interviewer: Yeah? #00:00:23-5#
respondent: The water. #00:00:25-6#
interviewer: So when the kids come in, it’s not supposed to be lighting up like this. Something is sort of triggering it, I think it’s light coming through these doors, or – I have to figure that out. #00:00:36-7#
respondent: Okay. #00:00:37-3#
interviewer: But basically, the idea is to come in and sit down and play with this like it’s just any, any normal toy – there’s no directions, or… #00:00:48-8#
respondent: Okay. So there’s no expectation? #00:00:51-3#
interviewer: No. And the child will be sitting here with their parent and I, I’m telling the parents – at least at first – not to direct the child at all, just see if they’re interested, or if they don’t like it, they can leave immediately – just kind of let them… just let them take the lead… #00:01:10-0#
respondent: Okay. #00:01:10-4#
interviewer: …for the start. #00:01:11-3#
respondent: How old are the kids? #00:01:12-2#
interviewer: Ahh, so I’ve got two groups: one autistic group and one typical group. The two autistic children I have are about six and the typical kids range from four to five – sorry three to five. #00:01:26-8#
respondent: Okay, so young… #00:01:28-7#
interviewer: Quite young, yep. #00:01:30-1#
respondent: And the light is gonna be… there? (gesturing to the interface table) #00:01:34-8#
interviewer: Coming from underneath? Yeah, I think one of things I need to do is, is try and block that out a little bit, cause it is distracting. #00:01:43-1#
respondent: Well, yes. From, from here, um, the type of light is, um, quite penetrating. So… #00:01:55-8#
interviewer: Because it’s so bright? #00:01:57-5#
respondent: Yeah. And, and, and focused. #00:02:00-6#
interviewer: Okay. #00:02:01-1#
respondent: So, it’s, um, I don’t know, you might want to consider that. I don’t know how you’re going to block it – maybe filters below? #00:02:08-7#
interviewer: I’ve had a couple of ideas, maybe to make those holes longer, so it, it kind of requires pushing down further and then you won’t get that… line of sight. #00:02:20-1#
respondent: Another simple idea might be just – because this doesn’t go all the way down, does it? (gesturing to pegs) #00:02:24-8#
interviewer: It just comes through. #00:02:26-3#
respondent: Okay. It might be that you might want to use some translucent – a sheet of something, to change the, the, the intensity and also the colour. #00:02:37-2#
interviewer: So it would be more like that quality of light. (gesturing to light on tent) #00:02:39-3#
respondent: Yes. A yellowish day kind of quality is better than this white, penetrating… you know. Cause this, these just come straight at you, like lasers, and um, are they halogen? #00:02:52-3#
interviewer: Ahh, they’re LEDs of some sort – they’re super bright LEDs. #00:02:56-4#
respondent: Yeah, so, at certain angles, they sort of, like, just come really right at you. It will not be comfortable. #00:03:02-7#
interviewer: Yep. #00:03:03-1#
respondent: But, I think if you just have a little, something – filter, it might help. #00:03:09-0#
interviewer: Okay. #00:03:09-9#
respondent: Okay. #00:03:10-8#
interviewer: Umm, I’ve had one typical kid and one autistic kid over the weekend and both of them just went straight for the blocks, like it was, really, a logical… #00:03:23-4#
respondent: Yes. #00:03:24-4#
interviewer: …way to engage. Umm… and the way that it works is… that basically each panel has three lights on it, like a triangle. And so these three holes (gesturing to interface) relate to that section (gesturing to the tent) and so on… #00:03:40-9#
respondent: Ahhh… I see. (whispered) #00:03:41-5#
interviewer: …and it shouldn’t be triggering like this – it should be, if a red peg goes in here, I should see a red light up the top. #00:03:48-1#
respondent: Okay. #00:03:49-9#
interviewer: And so… #00:03:51-1#
respondent: I see what you mean. That’s why you need the sensors here. #00:03:55-9#
interviewer: Yeah, yep. And… (pause) Yeah, it’s definitely not working as it should. Sometimes it does… #00:04:05-3#
respondent: I see that. (long pause) So the idea is the kids control the lights and the sound. #00:04:18-7#
interviewer: Yep. Yeah, so each, each peg, um, also triggers a note and there’s several speakers around here, so, that sound, that light will trigger a sound from that direction, so I’m trying to get their attention to, to… that direction, so they can recognise that what they’re doing is actually controlling the space, it’s not just… um… kind of random. #00:04:46-9#
respondent: And then you’re measuring how long it takes for them to actually figure it out? #00:04:50-4#
interviewer: Well… that’s, that’s what I thought I was going to do, but it was interesting with the autistic boy on Saturday; he came in and he was just, like, putting blocks in all the holes and he seemed really happy just to do that and he did that for about ten minutes and then he’d had enough and he left and I thought, “yeah, yeah, he liked playing with this (gesturing to interface), but this was sort of irrelevant (gesturing to tent)”. But then we went out and did an interview with, with his mum and he was still there, and, um, he, he goes, “yeah, yellow box control the yellow lights”. So he totally knew, he just didn’t look like a typical looks – he, he was aware that what was going on, but he was, visually looked focused at that, so… (gesturing to interface) #00:05:36-8#
respondent: Yes. Because then it’s, um, it’s a different channel of assimilating the sensory input. #00:05:44-6#
interviewer: Yep. #00:05:45-6#
respondent: Um, I had a kid like, I taught a kid like that. You wouldn’t think he was looking… but he was looking. #00:05:53-6#
interviewer: Very aware, yeah. #00:05:53-8#
respondent: Yep. Very aware. #00:05:54-9#
interviewer: So that, that was really interesting, um… #00:05:58-8#
respondent: You might find that the more severely autistic ones are more aware. #00:06:02-7#
interviewer: Okay. Yep. #00:06:04-3#
respondent: Because, um, they don’t filter out as much as the less severely autistic people. #00:06:10-8#
interviewer: Okay. Umm, yeah, he, he, he didn’t appear uncomfortable in the space, um… #00:06:19-4#
respondent: It’s a very comfortable space. #00:06:22-1#
interviewer: Oh, good. #00:06:22-6#
respondent: Um, I like that it’s enclosed. #00:06:25-0#
interviewer: Yep. #00:06:25-4#
respondent: And, umm… #00:06:27-4#
interviewer: The idea originally was, I was hoping to work with Aspect in their schools to start with and so the space is supposed to be mobile, but fit within their classroom or, or wherever else. #00:06:39-8#
respondent: Yes. #00:06:40-1#
interviewer: But still make it feel like it’s separate, so that they don’t, not going into just a, you know, another box – it’s like their own space. #00:06:47-3#
respondent: Yeah. #00:06:48-1#
interviewer: Um, so that was the original concept behind the tent. Um… #00:06:52-9#
respondent: Are you still about to get any schools involved? #00:06:56-0#
interviewer: No. Because I’m… not… it’s not evidence based, they’re not able to… help me. #00:07:05-2#
respondent: (incomprehensible) But you know the senses is an area that really needs studying. #00:07:11-4#
interviewer: Mmm. The therapist – I’ve had two therapists in here already – and they’re both super interested and they can totally see the value of it, they just… their institution stops them from being able to… uhh, work with me in any way. #00:07:26-0#
respondent: You know, I had an idea that’s not just – I mean I’m glad you have control groups, because this is going to benefit empathy teaching, teaching of empathy… #00:07:38-1#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:07:38-7#
respondent: …even to the neurotypical general kids. #00:07:42-5#
interviewer: Yep. #00:07:43-2#
respondent: Because I find that, um, with neurotypical kids – or the population in general – there is a similar lack of empathic reciprocity. #00:07:56-5#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:07:57-1#
respondent: Umm, so… this is a great empathy environment. #00:08:03-4#
interviewer: Okay. #00:08:04-2#
respondent: It’s just that I think it might take longer for… the typical kids to figure it out. #00:08:10-9#
interviewer: Yep. #00:08:11-4#
respondent: But… you know, you might want to take this even further if you’re studying empathy. #00:08:17-4#
interviewer: Yeah. It’s a direction I was thinking of for a while, but, um, just cause I’m running out of time… #00:08:25-2#
respondent: Me too. #00:08:26-0#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:08:26-9#
respondent: (laughing) #00:08:28-9#
interviewer: It’s like you’ve gotta kind of cut things off as you go along. #00:08:33-3#
respondent: This is wonderful. #00:08:35-6#
interviewer: Oh, great, I’m glad you like it. #00:08:37-6#
respondent: What is that for? (gesturing to top of tent) #00:08:39-6#
interviewer: Umm, there’s a microphone up there for recording the sessions and the other thing’s a light. Umm… #00:08:45-0#
respondent: Okay… #00:08:45-5#
interviewer: It was a white light, so you could see these colours better (gesturing to interface) without it being affected by this other coloured light (gesturing to tent). But I found that that was one of the reasons that this was triggering a lot, so… #00:08:56-5#
respondent: Well, I don’t think it’s necessary, because even with my middle-aged vision, I can see that, the colours very well. #00:09:04-2#
interviewer: Yep. #00:09:04-7#
respondent: Especially when you put it against the light, um, (incomprehensible) #00:09:08-0#
interviewer: Um, what do you think about the roughness of this? (gesturing to pegs) They were very quickly made and one of the therapists mentioned to me that she thought that, um, some kids might not like that texture. #00:09:18-9#
respondent: Yes. I noticed the roughness. Um, you know you can’t please everybody. But, um, some kids will be averse and then some kids will like it. #00:09:30-9#
interviewer: Mmm. #00:09:31-4#
respondent: So it all depends. For me, I personally I don’t like roughness, but if there were something textural, like, a squidgy or soft kind of texture, it would be fun to touch. #00:09:48-0#
interviewer: Okay. #00:09:48-5#
respondent: So, a more, um, abrasive roughness is generally less accepted… by touch sensitive people. But, people who like to touch and are very sensitive, they would like the, you know, soft, fluffy materials (incomprehensible) But it might be distracting, because then… #00:10:10-5#
interviewer: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. #00:10:12-6#
respondent: So I don’t know, I mean, if you don’t have time, I don’t think it’s… #00:10:16-9#
interviewer: I’d like to another version – this was kind of whipped up too quickly for my liking, but, um… yeah, the idea of a soft texture… #00:10:26-8#
respondent: Definitely a smoother, a smoother, you know, like the top? (gesturing to top of peg) #00:10:29-0#
interviewer: Yep. #00:10:29-7#
respondent: So definitely a smoother texture would be less distracting. #00:10:33-5#
interviewer: Mmm. #00:10:34-0#
respondent: You know, and, um, just… it, because it’s very neutral if it’s smoother. That’s all. So yes, it’s true – the texture, I noticed the texture. (pause) So what happens when you put everything in all so there will be two that will always be… #00:10:55-3#
interviewer: Yeah, I do have some more… um, but I did like the idea of, um, putting in something that doesn’t work – so the blue one doesn’t actually work, and then you can’t fill these two holes, cause then that encourages the kid to… #00:11:14-0#
respondent: Keep doing… #00:11:14-3#
interviewer: …to do something. #00:11:15-4#
respondent: Yes. #00:11:15-8#
interviewer: Like, say to their parent, what, where something’s missing and it just shows me that they’re aware of process. #00:11:21-5#
respondent: Yes, yes. Because you will find that if there isn’t anything missing, um, the kids come in and put everything in and then they leave. #00:11:30-6#
interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, so… that’s… the thinking behind that. If I could figure out this triggering though… #00:11:40-5#
respondent: How obvious is the sound then? Was that meant to be? #00:11:45-2#
interviewer: Yeah, that definitely was meant to be. If you take them all out – at the moment I only have the middle ones trigger sound. #00:11:54-7#
respondent: Oh, okay. #00:11:55-8#
interviewer: (playing with interface) #00:11:58-9#
respondent: I love them. (pause) That one is the delayed? #00:12:06-9#
interviewer: It shouldn’t be. (playing with interface) #00:12:18-0#
respondent: So it’s the same tone… #00:12:19-8#
interviewer: No, it should, it should be a scale, so it starts at C here and goes, D, E, F, G, A, B, C and then back down to C again. (gesturing to interface holes) #00:12:31-6#
respondent: Let’s try it again. You know that thirty per cent of autistic subjects… people (laughing) are, ah, have perfect pitch. #00:12:43-9#
interviewer: Really? #00:12:44-6#
respondent: Yes. #00:12:45-1#
interviewer: Wow. #00:12:45-7#
respondent: Um… even without musical training. #00:12:49-9#
interviewer: Wow. #00:12:51-0#
respondent: So there’s a study – I’ll send you the link. So it, it’s interesting. #00:12:57-3#
interviewer: I, I wanted ah, sound that wasn’t abrasive or intrusive, but at least was clear that that was having an effect, like a very, kind of quick… It’s, it’s kind of in it’s own feedback loop at the moment. I think what’s happening is that colour is triggering… #00:13:20-8#
respondent: Ahh. #00:13:21-9#
interviewer: So it, it thinks there is a yellow block in here somewhere, because there’s a yellow light coming in. #00:13:26-7#
respondent: Yeah, so I can see the technical difficulty here. #00:13:29-9#
interviewer: Umm… #00:13:32-4#
respondent: If it works, it’s a great idea. #00:13:34-4#
interviewer: Yeah? #00:13:35-3#
respondent: Because not just the light, but the sound and I immediately had this idea that, oh, you know, we could play with sound and create… a tune. #00:13:45-7#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. Yeah. (long pause) #00:14:00-1#
respondent: You might be surprised that the visual sense – although it’s very important to, um, uhh, the general population – um, for autistic with hyper senses, we are very visually stimulated, but I often find, um, I see things a little bit differently. Like, I prefer to hear when I see and the, um, if it’s not a narrative visual – like this isn’t a narrative – then I will be more naturally drawn to the sonic qualities – like what can I do with the sound? Okay, now I’ve got the colours; now I want to make a, a tune. #00:14:56-1#
interviewer: Yep. #00:14:56-7#
respondent: You know? Let’s see how the sound goes. Because visual is very immediate and it’s less interesting… #00:15:04-5#
interviewer: Yep. #00:15:04-9#
respondent: …to manipulate if it’s only visual (incomprehensible) …if it’s only non-representative visuals. So, the, the sound (incomprehensible) …really great if you can get it working. #00:15:16-2#
interviewer: Working properly, yeah. That, uh, that was one of the reasons – or another one of the reasons – that I, I wanted to do that, because I know that, you know, everyone experiences it, will experience it differently, so… #00:15:27-4#
respondent: Differently, yeah. So it’s a two-dimensional thing, you know. #00:15:30-9#
interviewer: Possibly even three, if they’re tactilally, you know, interested in just the object (incomprehensible) #00:15:37-1#
respondent: Oh yeah. If you change them – if every edge has a different, slightly different tactile quality – I don’t know if it’s going to make it more complex or more enjoyable, but that’s another thought. #00:15:50-3#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:15:51-0#
respondent: So that they can play with the… #00:15:54-0#
interviewer: Maybe each colour is a different texture as well. #00:15:57-9#
respondent: Yeah, yeah. And it’s not difficult if you put fabric on or something and you stick something on in the corresponding colour. (pause) Oh, I love this dome. What are you going to do with it when you finish with it? #00:16:18-2#
interviewer: I don’t know. I had somebody ask me if I could take it to an outdoor music festival in the bush. (laughing) Which I think would be kind of interesting… #00:16:26-6#
respondent: Well as long as the wind doesn’t blow it away… #00:16:28-1#
interviewer: It should, it should be reasonable strong. It’s just all the, the lights and things. #00:16:34-3#
respondent: It’s amazing. #00:16:36-0#
interviewer: I would really like to do another prototype that, um… have you ever seen the geodesic domes? #00:16:43-8#
respondent: Yes. #00:16:44-7#
interviewer: Um, that was pieces like that and so it was quite modular with the lights inside and then I think you, like, people could make sections for themselves and, and have it in their home or school or anything like that. #00:17:00-5#
respondent: Yeah. When you design one, let me know. #00:17:03-4#
interviewer: Yeah? #00:17:04-0#
respondent: I’m very interested because my next piece, I’d like to feature kind of, a dome thing or you know, something to – have you seen the snuggle pots – pods – snuggle pods for cats and tiny dogs, made of felt… #00:17:20-2#
interviewer: Oh, yes I have. Yes, I have. #00:17:21-1#
respondent: …and I, you know, ever since I saw those, I want to make one for… me. (laughing) #00:17:28-1#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:17:28-3#
respondent: It’s just… so encompassing. You know, Temple Grandin’s squeeze machine? #00:17:34-9#
interviewer: Yep. #00:17:35-2#
respondent: So, it’s quite like that. I’d love to make a dome. Wow. #00:17:42-4#
interviewer: I’m glad you like it. That’s great. #00:17:46-3#
respondent: Well some of us, we could stay here for, for a long time. But of course depends on, you know, attention span. #00:17:51-7#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:17:52-3#
respondent: Because the thing about measuring autism response to stimuli is that a lot of autistic kids have co-morbids, ADD, which may not be, you know, an autistic trait, but because they also have that, then they can stay for long in any place. #00:18:12-5#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:18:12-8#
respondent: But then, there’s some of us that who would find this, like, so absorbing. #00:18:16-7#
interviewer: Hmm. Even, I had, when I first made this, I had a meeting with my supervisors and I decided to come in here and speak to them and the tone and the quality of the conversation was so different… #00:18:29-7#
respondent: Yes. #00:18:30-1#
interviewer: …inside here. It was like, very much like, I don’t know, sitting around a campfire, or… #00:18:34-9#
respondent: Yes. #00:18:35-7#
interviewer: …like a… it was much more engaged and, maybe even empathetic – I’m not sure. #00:18:41-8#
respondent: Oh yes, space design actually in, influences mood and levels of empathy and people shut out certain, um, stimulation, um, channels. Um, I think it’s good for everyone, it’s not just people with autism. I think we are bombarded with far too much and meeting in cafes and things is really hard work, even for a neurotypical person, it’s just that the brain is better able to unconsciously filter, you know, and then, and you’re not as conscious of the fact that your brain is really working hard. But, it, it is. So for people like us who can’t filter so well, then of course, you know, it’s, like, half an hour in the cafe and I’m, I’m really near overload. #00:19:34-1#
interviewer: Yeah. I’m actually exactly the same. #00:19:37-2#
respondent: Yeah, I find that my shy friends will have hypersensitivity, but they noticing they can’t stay in a cafe for long, but the want to because they’re very social (laughing) whereas for me, “I’ve had enough of you, bye”. (laughing) #00:19:51-5#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:19:52-2#
respondent: My friends will just endure it, I say, “why do you endure it?”, “oh, because I love my friends, I love being out, I love…”, “yeah, but you get a headache”. #00:19:59-9#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:20:00-5#
respondent: So, I think it’s the social realm that of course does differentiate us, you know. Um, I have very poor social attention span. (pause) I could be in this space forever. #00:20:13-8#
interviewer: Great. #00:20:15-1#
respondent: Hmm, it’s wonderful, wow. I want to make my bedroom this, like this. #00:20:19-1#
interviewer: (laughing) This is actually shower curtain. #00:20:22-6#
respondent: Oh it is! #00:20:23-9#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:20:24-4#
respondent: So how did you sew it without… #00:20:26-4#
interviewer: Ahh, that’s where _____ really helped me out. It was a really tough thing to sew… #00:20:32-9#
respondent: Because I’ve tried to sew shower curtains the conventional way – they just teared. #00:20:35-8#
interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, it did, the first few tests completely teared, um, she’s very good with textiles and it was something to do with the stitch pattern – it was very specific. #00:20:47-0#
respondent: Ahh, and the tension… #00:20:48-3#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:20:48-7#
respondent: Oh, this is amazing, you must definitely use it again. #00:20:53-2#
interviewer: Yeah, yeah, I will. I’ll definitely hang onto it. #00:20:57-4#
respondent: Yeah. Or if you let me borrow it for my piece… #00:21:02-5#
interviewer: Yeah, you’re welcome to, absolutely. #00:21:04-2#
respondent: I’ll put in a mention for you. (laughing) #00:21:06-2#
interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, that’s fine. Um, the only difficulty is, is what’s going run it. #00:21:10-9#
respondent: No, me, I don’t need the lights, I just need the dome. #00:21:14-4#
interviewer: Oh, okay. #00:21:15-0#
respondent: Because, um, my work is going to go back to low-tech – as little tech as possible. So, it’s just, it’s just a basic sensorial feel of being enclosed. You know, and then I’ll gonna have blankets and… basically people come in and sleep. (laughing) #00:21:35-9#
interviewer: _____ wanted to sleep here this morning. #00:21:37-5#
respondent: It’s gorgeous. #00:21:39-7#
interviewer: Okay. I might switch off the recording… #00:21:43-8#
respondent: Okay. Thanks so much. #00:21:44-6#
interviewer: Thank you. #00:21:49-5#
respondent: (incomprehensible) #00:21:50-5#
interviewer: Thanks. #00:21:51-0#
respondent: I can’t see. (incomprehensible) #00:21:57-1#
—
Teacher (interview 2)
interviewer: Yeah. #00:00:09-2#
respondent: Cool. #00:00:09-8#
interviewer: (incomprehensible) #00:00:11-1#
respondent: Has this been working this time? #00:00:13-1#
interviewer: It has been working this time… #00:00:14-7#
respondent: Yay… oh, yeah (pressing buttons) #00:00:15-7#
interviewer: So I’m interested in seeing how people approach it before I tell them how it works. #00:00:20-5#
respondent: Hmm. #00:00:20-8#
interviewer: So, do you wanna have a try? #00:00:24-2#
respondent: (pressing buttons for some time, trying combinations of buttons) #00:00:48-3#
interviewer: (laughing) #00:00:50-3#
respondent: (pressing combinations of buttons) Why does red override green? #00:01:15-2#
respondent: (pressing buttons) (incomprehensible) (laughing) #00:01:21-0#
respondent: Fun. I like your tone that you’re using. #00:01:27-1#
respondent: (pressing buttons) Green’s greater than yellow… #00:01:35-2#
respondent: (pressing buttons) No! (laughing) Fun. Cool. #00:01:45-0#
interviewer: Okay, let me tell you how it works. #00:01:47-6#
respondent: Sure. #00:01:48-0#
interviewer: Um, so when you first press any button, the whole tent turns that colour. And if you, like, move around the tent, whatever colour you press, that colour (incomprehensible) the whole tent. Ahh, when you were pressing two at once, all that was doing is, whatever the computer reads as the last press is the colour – yeah. So, it probably feels like you’re pressing them at the same time, but the computer sees it as… #00:02:16-0#
respondent: Yep. Computer says no. #00:02:17-7#
interviewer: The dome and the dome (pointing at interface and tent) are made up into segments and if you stay within the same segment repetitively, it eventually matches the segment that you’re… #00:02:32-0#
respondent: Okay. #00:02:33-0#
interviewer: …pressing. If you move to a different one, it resets. #00:02:37-3#
respondent: To all of them. #00:02:38-8#
interviewer: So, I, I’m interested in seeing whether the child makes that connection between position here and position there, because it’s quite an abstract… um, mapping. #00:02:52-9#
respondent: Well, and it involves multiple input as well. How many is it, to get to that? #00:03:00-5#
interviewer: As soon as you press within the panel more than once – so if I press once, twice, (pressing buttons) and that one goes out (pointing at tent panel) and it steps. #00:03:12-0#
respondent: So one, two, three, four… (pressing buttons) #00:03:15-9#
interviewer: And then you have about seven presses from there. If you keep going, it becomes random. #00:03:22-4#
respondent: Ahh! #00:03:22-8#
interviewer: And the idea with that is, I’m really interested to see what happens when the control is taken away from the child. Do they try and re-engage with it in a different way – do they move around and it resets, or… do they verbalise something, like, say to their parent “it’s not working” or “what happened, can you help me?”. Um, that’s the moment that I’m really fascinated by. If they, if they kind of get their by mistake – if it’s still red, red, red, (pressing red button repeatedly) and then suddenly it’s not – that’s still okay. #00:04:04-8#
respondent: Mmm. (pause) Yeah, cool. #00:04:08-8#
interviewer: That’s about it. It’s pretty simple. #00:04:11-7#
respondent: Mmm, it is. #00:04:12-8#
interviewer: But, I think there’s enough to kind of get some interesting behaviours. #00:04:17-7#
respondent: Definitely. #00:04:19-2#
interviewer: (pause) (incomprehensible) If you were working with kids in this space, do you think it would feel kind of separate to the outside space, so in this case the, the room? Would they feel like this was another environment? #00:04:51-6#
respondent: Umm… (pause) I think so. (pause) Like, apart from a few just, little – it would be more just setup stuff and I think I said this (incomprehensible) last time – when you do have visibility to the external, you might find that some kids are interested in that. But having the barriers up coming in I think is a really good… #00:05:27-2#
interviewer: Yeah, they’re new. #00:05:28-2#
respondent: …yeah. #00:05:29-8#
interviewer: I tried to really direct attention… #00:05:32-6#
respondent: Attention to here. Yeah. Um, and I know, I guess in my day-to-day work, that’s something that you do often have to do, just because of distractibility and, um, one of the kinda characteristic that you’ll find with a lot of people with autism is that they can’t necessarily – their focus might not be on what you were wanting them to focus – so you do manipulate your environment, to get them to, to see where, like to focus on what you want them to. Um, but in terms of being in here (gesturing to the dome) – yes. I think, as soon as the lights come on, it feels like a, like – for me – it feels like you’re in an environment. I guess it would, would just be seeing kids in here to know how they (incomprehensible). You do find a lot of kids will navigate, like, themself to areas like this, so, um, but it really depends on what they’re (incomprehensible) I guess. (incomprehensible) their autism profile is so they’re more inclined to seek out kind of enclosed spaces then they don’t (incomprehensible). But I like that it’s not, not super enclosed. There is space still in here and, um, like for us as adults it feels like there’s space, so for kids (incomprehensible) I think as long as they can stand it’s a good thing. Did you find they went for…? (pointing at the down-light and microphone) #00:07:32-8#
interviewer: Nobody has yet. Kids would often open the top (pointing to the interface table) to see what’s inside. #00:07:40-4#
respondent: Yep. So it was the blocks, wasn’t it? #00:07:42-4#
interviewer: Yeah. (incomprehensible) #00:07:45-4#
respondent: Yeah. I don’t whether they’d be able to get in, get in to it. #00:07:50-4#
interviewer: Um, when you came in, you recognised this as the dome straight away, as being this dome (pointing from interface to tent)? #00:07:58-3#
respondent: Yep. #00:07:58-7#
interviewer: Okay. I’ve had a couple of people that haven’t. #00:08:01-0#
respondent: Oh, right. #00:08:01-9#
interviewer: I don’t know why, they just… I don’t know, ignored that there’s door here and a door there and just saw this as an object with buttons on it. #00:08:10-6#
respondent: Hmm. I think, um, I probably did that because when I was here last time you were trying – the colours were, um, like it was reading the wrong colours when the blocks went in and so I think just because you talked about problem-solving that, I immediately thought (incomprehensible) …so I don’t know whether coming in, not experiencing this at all (incomprehensible) #00:08:41-0#
interviewer: Yeah. Yep. Um… I’ve got a video of Theo coming in here on the weekend – did you see it? #00:08:50-3#
respondent: No. #00:08:51-0#
interviewer: So he came straight in and started pressing the buttons right away, which is cool. #00:08:56-4#
respondent: Yep. #00:08:57-2#
interviewer: But what I noticed – you did this as well and most adults do – is it looks like they look for relationships across the object, or between buttons, whereas he just came in and like mashed buttons. #00:09:11-4#
respondent: Banging, yeah. #00:09:12-0#
interviewer: Which is sort of the behaviour that I’ve programmed. But I’m wondering at what point does – like, obviously for him repetition is interesting still, but when does it stop being that way? We seem to outgrow it at some point. #00:09:30-7#
respondent: Mmm, yeah, it would be a… I’m trying to think, developmentally what it is that’s happening – I guess it’s, like, understanding sequence. Um… which you may find with your, like, cohort of people with autism, that they may not do that, because that’s actually like a characteristic is that sequencing and ordering can be quite difficult. #00:10:03-4#
interviewer: And that’s separate to pattern-making? #00:10:05-6#
respondent: Um, well it’s all kind of the same sort of thought process, so it all comes under like, Executive Functioning – so that’s where your, um, like kind of higher order thinking that we use to order our days and order how to do talks and things like that, um, so it’d be interesting to see how, like you do get a kind of… like, how they approach it, whether it is through sequence – so I just naturally think that a sequence is to go around as well. Um, yeah it’d be interesting to see. Are you going to video the kids coming in? #00:10:53-5#
interviewer: Yep. Video record and track their presses as well to see if there’s any kind of correlation. Um… yep. #00:11:01-8#
respondent: Yeah. Um, but I think things that you probably would be interesting whether, um, like what colours are chosen first as well. Um… #00:11:14-4#
interviewer: If they’re attracted to certain colours? #00:11:16-0#
respondent: Yeah. Um, not like I wouldn’t necessarily think that there would be, like that all participants would be attracted to the same colour, but um, whether they, like, would one individual be attracted to the same colour around, or just looking at, kind of, restricted interests and stuff you might find that type of thing. Um, there’s lots of different areas of autism that could, that could be interesting to see whether you can kind of figure out parts of their characteristics while (incomprehensible) #00:12:05-2#
interviewer: Yeah. Do you think that, um, the position mapping was too abstract for autistic kids? Like when it gets to this stage (pressing buttons)? #00:12:18-3#
respondent: Um… it would really depend on the individual. Um… yeah. I think if kids are pretty clever. Once they’ve picked up on it, it would be… it would be interesting to see whether they generalise it around. So if they happen to, if it happened here (pressing buttons), whether they go “oh, that’s going to happen on this one” (pressing buttons). So that might be something that might, like, or whether they just stick at the one thing. #00:12:59-4#
interviewer: Yep. So it’s kind of just, sit themself here and figure out how it works for here and… #00:13:04-1#
respondent: But yeah, just interesting to see if they generalise it around the whole thing. Um, and whether the random ones action is enough to motivate them to go somewhere else maybe. #00:13:16-3#
interviewer: Yep. #00:13:17-4#
respondent: Um… yeah, I, it’s hard to say whether they’d, it would be too abstract. Um… #00:13:25-5#
interviewer: It is kind of a strange one, even for adults. You’re, you’re looking from the outside at something that you’re inside… #00:13:32-3#
respondent: Yeah. #00:13:32-8#
interviewer: …and that’s, that’s pretty abstract, really. #00:13:37-7#
respondent: Yeah. Um, could you make this light up as well? (pointing at interface) #00:13:43-7#
interviewer: I’ve thought about that and a few people have said it… #00:13:45-7#
respondent: Yeah. Just to create that link between the two. It’d be, like, maybe a next step. #00:13:52-0#
interviewer: The reason that I didn’t was, I didn’t want this object to be the focus. Um, I wanted this (pointing at space) to be the focus. #00:14:00-5#
respondent: Yeah. I don’t immediately look behind me when I do it. Um, but if you’re doing it slow enough and noticing the, it’s taking away, then maybe. #00:14:17-2#
interviewer: There’ll also be the parent in here, so um, mostly they sit opposite each other. And if they kind of get to here (pressing buttons) and then they’re like “where is it?”, the parent would probably say… #00:14:30-0#
respondent: You’re encouraging them to interact, to… yeah. You’d be looking at (incomprehensible) kinda joint attention. #00:14:42-9#
interviewer: Mmm. (pause) Um, is this something that you could imagine being used with the school? For any reason at all? #00:15:03-0#
respondent: (laughing) Um, for any reason? Yeah, definitely. The one reason that we wouldn’t have it is just the setup: you couldn’t, we don’t actually have space to use it, um… Purpose built though – like, if you did have a space, then yeah, I think you could, could use it – I think it’d be really nice for, um, just interactions, one-on-one, small group interactions. Um, maybe some language development. Like, it would really just depend on – again – on the individual. #00:15:47-5#
interviewer: And so that one-on-one interaction is, like, just a kind of, way of communicating between people? #00:15:57-5#
respondent: Yeah. Yeah, so I think with, um… like I could see it with high support, like people with higher support needs, just having a bit of a focal area. So, even though you don’t want this to be the focus (pointing to the interface), it still, it creates a purpose in the space I guess. #00:16:23-1#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:16:23-7#
respondent: Um… and if there is that repetition, that’s going to probably draw a lot of, um, those sorts of students in, in terms of their interests. Um (pause)… with, like it’s, people with high, like a bit more higher functioning, it would probably be a nice, like, like I said, the tone’s really nice, so even just music-making and… #00:17:07-1#
interviewer: Hmm. #00:17:07-9#
respondent: …um, we’ve just done some stuff with, like, just kids jamming on the iPads together, and we can, um, like record each of them, like up to four participants on the, like, playing all together, like they will (incomprehensible) together. And kids just love it, they, um, so that might be a nice thing as well – just some social interaction. Um… yeah, there’s no real (incomprehensible). (incomprehensible) …bit like Knights of the Round Table, where there’s no like, first or second or third, everyone can kinda be an equal participant in this. #00:18:05-9#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:18:06-4#
respondent: Cause that’s often where you’re going to, like for, when, with the kids that I work with that are at that sort of level, where they’re really learning those, um, peer-interaction skills, um, that’s something that’s a massive problem often. It’s just that notion of who’s first and needing to race and not having an understanding that it really doesn’t matter. It’d be nice. #00:18:38-4#
interviewer: Cool. #00:18:39-2#
respondent: Hmm. Um, but other applications in a school… it (pause) to have a space like this just in general, it would be, I think it’d be interesting just to see how kids react in it – to know whether it’s, like even to have a kind of calming space – I wonder if that would work. I’m sure it would – I feel relaxed in here. I know how to change the colours from red to green… #00:19:19-3#
interviewer: It does seem pretty common feedback that it is a relaxing space. Um, (incomprehensible) pretty good amount of contained, but not claustrophobic. Cool. #00:19:43-5#
respondent: If only we could get you to actually come and set it up in our school. #00:19:51-2#
interviewer: I am planning for the end of the year to, as a proof of concept, come up with modular pieces which would construct the tent and everything would be inside of it. Cause really I think the issue with this at a school or anywhere else is, everything around it. #00:20:12-9#
respondent: Yeah. Straight away, just from the WHS perspective, you couldn’t have it in the way that it is now. The concept – yes, but not, like you can’t… well, the cost involved in it, but then just the safety requirements. (laughing) Um, could you have it that the light is kind of built in to the pieces? Like… #00:20:40-2#
interviewer: I think so. LEDs, they don’t heat up that much, uhh, low power… the hardest part I think would be to get these pieces to kind of talk to each other. Some kind of network. Um, but it would be an interesting design problem. #00:20:56-3#
respondent: Yeah. #00:20:57-7#
interviewer: And I can’t see any reason that it couldn’t be done. Um, there’s a really good model that I’m looking at by a guy at UTS, who has created this – it’s kind of like a pad (incomprehensible) and it’s for people recovering from stroke and it’s all about balance and like a biofeedback (incomprehensible) So, it help, it helps them to be more aware of their body, and… anyway, this object um, can be 3D printed and he’s releasing all this stuff for free. #00:21:37-1#
respondent: Mmm. #00:21:38-0#
interviewer: So you can make it yourself and, like, all the parts are readily available. And I think it would be a really great model to use for this (incomprehensible) so school’s could make it themselves and there’s no reason people couldn’t make them at home. Um, yeah. And everything fits within a box and however many boxes you want (incomprehensible) can fit together. #00:22:02-6#
respondent: Yeah, cool. Isn’t that amazing. That you can just do that? #00:22:08-4#
interviewer: Yeah. This is all 3D printed (pointing at interface). #00:22:10-4#
respondent: That? #00:22:11-5#
interviewer: Yep. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. #00:22:14-8#
respondent: Hmm. (pause) Do you have one here that you can use? #00:22:22-4#
interviewer: Yeah. This was all printed here. Which is good, cause it’s like 25% of the cost of commercial printing. #00:22:32-3#
respondent: Yeah. #00:22:33-1#
interviewer: So it’s still expensive. #00:22:34-3#
respondent: Yeah. How long do you think until it’s affordable? #00:22:39-7#
interviewer: I think in 5 years. #00:22:41-1#
respondent: Yeah. I guess it’s the materials as well, isn’t it? If you’re going to be printing with something that sort of, good material, then there’s obviously a cost associated with it. #00:22:50-9#
interviewer: Yeah, this is quite cheap. (incomprehensible) Cool. That’s all I need. I’m a lot more focused this time. #00:23:07-6#
respondent: Well it’s working – that’s nice. #00:23:09-5#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:23:09-8#
respondent: It was completely not helping when I saw you at the end of the whole thing as well. (incomprehensible) (laughing) #00:23:32-7# #00:23:41-6#
(general chat)
—
Autistic multi-artist (interview 2)
interviewer: You can sit wherever you like. So what, when people come in for the first time, I usually just let them explore and see what they do. #00:00:22-2#
respondent: Okay. (pause) So you won’t tell them anything? #00:00:28-6#
interviewer: No. No. I’ve actually done all the studies with kids – I finished them yesterday. Um, and they’re all from like 3 to 5 years old and they come in and just see buttons and go for the buttons – all of them. #00:00:41-6#
respondent: (incomprehensible) (pressing buttons for some time, eventually playing out a musical pattern) This one has no matching (pointing at door panel on interface)… this one is alone. #00:01:51-0#
interviewer: No, that’s, so… #00:01:52-2#
respondent: Oh, there’s some here. #00:01:53-5#
interviewer: Yeah. It’s starts at like a low C and goes to a high C here and then back down to a low C, so a kind of symmetry. #00:01:59-6#
respondent: Yes. So this one doesn’t have, these… are similar. There’s a symmetry here? #00:02:08-4#
interviewer: Um, so that would be the middle one and then you’ve got these two panels here, which are the same, and two panels at the front. #00:02:14-5#
respondent: Okay. (pressing buttons, sequentially) I’d be curious to know how many kids did the linear and how many did what I did? #00:02:38-7#
interviewer: There was, particularly one autistic boy, who came in and just did loops, going up and down and up and down – he seemed to really like that. And there, there was one or two typical kids who did the same thing. Um, but the way this version of the interface has been designed is, so this (pointing at interface) is a representation of the space that we’re in, um, and each of these panels (pointing to dome panel) has one panel and a set of buttons. So if you went around and pressed one button on each panel, the whole tent lights that colour. But if you stay within the same panel, over time it is only that panel which lights. And if you stay here for even longer, it stops responding, like in a mapped sort of way – it becomes random. #00:03:32-7#
respondent: Yes. #00:03:33-6#
interviewer: And so, I’ve also got a switch on the computer where I can just switch it to random and there was the boy who came in and went around and around and did that for about a minute and I switched it to random, so as soon as it stops responding in that expected kind of way, he stopped and he kind of sat down and tried to figure out what was going on. #00:03:53-6#
respondent: So it’s the control, um, in a way they are getting the message that they can control the environment through this? #00:04:04-7#
interviewer: Yeah. I think they all recognise the relationship between colour and light. And also the just, just enjoy the sound (incomprehensible) play notes. I don’t – there might have been one girl who was the eldest girl – understood the position relationship, but not many people do, even adults don’t. I think it’s kind of abstract that we’re… #00:04:29-0#
respondent: It is very abstract. #00:04:30-6#
interviewer: …inside a space as well at looking at the outside of the space. #00:04:33-8#
respondent: Yes. What my mind immediately tried to do is to find sets. #00:04:38-7#
interviewer: Yep. #00:04:39-2#
respondent: Um, then the environment was secondary to my response. Because I think it’s also conditioning and the age. #00:04:50-0#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:04:50-3#
respondent: Because for me, I’ve been so conditioned to filter out the environment, that I zeroed in, first thing, on the sets. I was trying to find… #00:05:03-1#
interviewer: I think it’s just a general developmental thing, rather than an autism/neurotypical thing. All adults that come in here look for that relationship across, like they’ll go from red button to red button, trying combinations. #00:05:17-2#
respondent: Right. To find, what, sonic, the sound sets? I was trying to find sound sets. #00:05:22-3#
interviewer: Um… no, I think, I think once people realise that at some point, not the entire tent is lit, that’s when they try and figure out what’s… causing that. Um, whereas kids, they just love pressing buttons. #00:05:39-0#
respondent: And the effect. #00:05:39-8#
interviewer: It didn’t really matter what was happening, as far as like, position, as long as they knew yellow made yellow somewhere, they just were quite happy to press buttons. #00:05:51-7#
respondent: Are there combinations of colours? #00:05:53-6#
interviewer: No, not on this one. #00:05:55-1#
respondent: Okay. Did you find that there were some kids, um… who actually did begin to try and control the environment actively? #00:06:07-4#
interviewer: Yeah, yep. Um, so that boy who when I switched on to random, then he sort of sat down – um, I can’t remember exactly what he said, but he was talking to his mum about how to make it work, and then he started trying combinations. Even when I turned it back off random again on the computer, he was still, was trying to figure it out rather than just go around it and kind of, I guess repetitive sort of behaviour. #00:06:32-3#
respondent: So, in a way then, do you think that reflects that, you know, that the so-called predilection for, for, for a meaningless repetition is not entirely true. Because that’s what I’ve found. #00:06:46-7#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:06:47-2#
respondent: That um, when I observe, um, the more severely autistic children who seem to be repeating, um, you know, the science tells you it, it’s just meaningless. But now, of course newer science is finding some meaning, but my observation is that they’re trying to figure out um, a meaning in the repetition. #00:07:13-8#
interviewer: Yeah. I… I’m finding it difficult to kinda separate age and diagnosis with what I’ve done here. I mean, my son – I mean he’s only 18 months, so he wouldn’t be diagnosed if he was autistic, but anyway – but he came in and just pressed buttons over and over and over, and that’s, that’s normal for a (incomprehensible) of that age. And um, and most kids kind of did that. #00:07:40-9#
respondent: Yeah, yes. I think that’s how the non-verbal or the, the less verbal, um, humans, you know, whether – and of course, the younger ones are less verbal – that’s how we learn; trial and error. #00:07:53-5#
interviewer: And to be honest, there was plenty of adults that came in, who once they figured out there was a random – that kind of effect (pressing buttons) – were just happy to experience that. And weren’t concerned about pattern or anything like that – they just enjoyed that sensory experience I guess. #00:08:12-5#
respondent: It is, it’s a wonderful sensory experience (pressing buttons). You can just press one after the other (incomprehensible). Also, I like the additional water. Does that sound… well not 100%, but quite a large majority of people whether autistic or with sensory issues, will like the sound of water. #00:08:42-8#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:08:43-0#
respondent: And I tried it on friends who are non-autistic, but they have sensory processing issues, and every one of us are, you know, we zero in on the sound of running water as a calming agent. #00:08:56-8#
interviewer: I, the idea of, of that kind of ambient sound is to really make it feel like it’s not in this space. To make it feel like it’s somewhere else. #00:09:07-0#
respondent: I think it’s really effective. Do you think that the door, the fact that people can see through that (pointing to room door), um, distracts? #00:09:16-9#
interviewer: I haven’t noticed it. The first two times I ran this, I covered it up, just because of lighting issues. Um, but being winter now, it wasn’t so important, there wasn’t so much light coming through and I sort of thought, having that open… #00:09:32-1#
respondent: It’s not claustrophobic. #00:09:33-7#
interviewer: …exactly. It makes them feel like they can leave whenever they want to, that the outside is just there. Um, I didn’t notice anyone being distracted by it. #00:09:43-5#
respondent: I love this. I like the new, the new (incomprehensible) (pressing buttons). #00:09:49-9#
interviewer: I think it’s been more successful to make an immediate connection to the, the sound and the light. The other two were a bit, they weren’t quite as responsive… #00:10:01-3#
respondent: Because they were trying, there’s too much physical manoeuvring in, you know, the blocks (incomprehensible). This is very immediate. #00:10:11-7#
interviewer: Mmm. And it was quite complex: I divided each panel previously into three separate lights and you could make three separate colours on each panel, whereas this is, there’s only three colours on the entire object. Um, and so the relationship is, I guess, with the whole tent, rather than a single light on the tent. #00:10:34-9#
respondent: (pressing buttons) Has anybody to make tunes? #00:10:55-0#
interviewer: Yeah. (laughing) Plenty of people. #00:10:57-4#
respondent: (laughing) (pressing buttons) So the interactive element with the space and sound – how many people actually were conscious in playing with that, rather than, you know… #00:11:15-7#
interviewer: I, I would say almost everybody gets some sense of being able to control the space – mostly just the colour relationship. #00:11:27-2#
respondent: Mmm hmm. #00:11:27-9#
interviewer: Um, and the sound as well. Not many understood the way that it becomes this panel (touching interface) is this panel (pointing to tent). Um, and I think that’s just because it’s quite an abstract way of relating to space. Especially if, if what you’re using is in front of you, the light’s behind you. #00:11:50-3#
respondent: Yes. #00:11:51-2#
interviewer: Um, and so you’re not necessarily conscious of turning around and looking at… #00:11:56-3#
respondent: (pressing buttons) So sometimes it switches off! #00:12:05-5#
interviewer: If you stay in the same panel, it will eventually just becomes that light behind you. #00:12:11-0#
respondent: Ahh. #00:12:12-4#
interviewer: But if, if you don’t press anything for five seconds, it restarts that process. #00:12:17-4#
respondent: Okay then. Lucy is crying – she needs to get used to… That adds to the sound (laughing) – Lucy crying for me. #00:12:34-2#
interviewer: Would it be better if she came in here? #00:12:36-1#
respondent: Oh no, it’s alright. She’s just a little bit distressed, cause I never, I seldom ever leave her alone where she’s within earshot of me. #00:12:43-2#
interviewer: Oh, okay. #00:12:44-0#
respondent: So she can hear me, but she can’t reach me, so she’s (incomprehensible) (pressing buttons) I… how are you arriving at your conclusions (incomprehensible) in the experiment? #00:13:03-1#
interviewer: I’m most interested in what happens when, um, control’s taken away and how a child responds, so… what I’m really looking for is what kind of design process lets me see that moment. Um, it’s not so much whether I can say, you know, “this is what autistic kids do, this is what typical kids do, what adults do”, it’s um, more a reflection on my process which will let me get to that point. #00:13:38-7#
respondent: Yes. So your focus is on the control – the element of control. #00:13:44-0#
interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Not even the artefact so much, um although obviously it all feeds into it. #00:13:50-3#
respondent: So if I stayed here for long enough and I was trying to figure out sonic sets and then you switched it to random, does the sound switch to random as well? #00:14:05-1#
interviewer: (incomprehensible) (switching computer to random) That’s random now. And I think just about every child at that point kind of looks up and… #00:14:27-5#
respondent: Is like “what’s happening?” #00:14:29-3#
interviewer: …”what’s happening?”, yeah. Which is quite interesting. So whether they seem to understand how they’re controlling it or not, they realise when that’s gone… #00:14:40-9#
respondent: There is a change. Do the adults notice? #00:14:43-5#
interviewer: I haven’t tried it on adults actually. #00:14:46-6#
respondent: It might be interesting, because adults don’t notice as many things as children. #00:14:52-0#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:14:52-4#
respondent: And, and that’s the whole, now there is this movement where examining autistic adults versus autistic children. #00:15:00-1#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:15:00-4#
respondent: And, um, trying to find back the innate abilities that we have that we have been washed out of, you know, because of ABA and things like that. #00:15:12-4#
interviewer: Yep. #00:15:12-8#
respondent: Where we have to concentrate on other things, so we lose intrinsic ability. I find that I’m less observant than my so-called low-functioning autistic students. #00:15:24-1#
interviewer: Yep. #00:15:24-4#
respondent: Because I’ve been (incomprehensible) #00:15:27-0#
interviewer: I think that’s probably similar to typical kids and adults as well. #00:15:30-8#
respondent: Yes. #00:15:31-5#
interviewer: (incomprehensible) …a child kind of absorbs things. #00:15:35-1#
respondent: I notice, and I think that there’s something very wrong with our even typical, um, education processes and system, that we are teaching children to become dull… #00:15:50-6#
interviewer: Mmm. #00:15:51-6#
respondent: …in the senses. And to learn almost only verbally. You know, it’s the mind-word connection and the sense are all taken away. It’s very interesting – I was very interested in my own reaction, cause immediately I wanted to find the things out, you know, and then I realised, “okay so this panel is the panel that does not have…” (pointing to door panel of interface) #00:16:20-3#
interviewer: Like a mirror. #00:16:22-5#
respondent: …yeah. #00:16:22-8#
interviewer: Yep. #00:16:23-5#
respondent: You know, I notice that it’s less destructible. (laughing) #00:16:30-4#
interviewer: (laughing) It’s quite robust, yeah. #00:16:32-1#
respondent: What did you make this out of? #00:16:35-1#
interviewer: That’s 3D printed. Just here, down at the Makerspace. (incomprehensible) #00:16:41-8#
respondent: (pressing buttons) So when it’s on random, when it was on random just now, I found that um, it’s also random where it lights up, it’s not just the sound, but… #00:17:00-7#
interviewer: Colour, position and sound – they’re all randomised. Cause I really wanted to totally take away control. There might have been a child that was just interested in the notes, and if they can still play notes, they probably don’t care what the light is doing. #00:17:15-6#
respondent: Yes. Did anybody throw a fit when the control was taken away? #00:17:22-5#
interviewer: No. Um, the autistic kids I have are very high functioning. #00:17:27-9#
respondent: Which means we are low functioning, actually. #00:17:30-9#
interviewer: Yeah? #00:17:32-3#
respondent: That’s, you know, all the tests with the so-called low functioning – they are actually higher sensory functioning. So they react very quickly to the environment, whereas I would not. So if you only tested on high function – higher functioning – people and children, they are less likely to, to have a meltdown if you take away the repetitive or whatever the, you know, the pattern. #00:18:00-8#
interviewer: Yep. Yeah, I really wanted to get some lower functioning kids, but that’s, yeah. I’m kind of treating this like a… #00:18:09-3#
respondent: (incomprehensible) #00:18:09-9#
interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. #00:18:11-9#
respondent: I have a friend who’s kid would tear it down. (laughing) I, I mean I worked with a kid who actually tore things down when the structure was (incomprehensible). #00:18:21-8#
interviewer: Okay. #00:18:22-2#
respondent: And so, and then you’ll have to redo the whole design – basically make it like a padded cell. #00:18:29-6#
interviewer: Mmm. I was thinking of, of doing a kind of prototype of how this would be built in modular pieces and a bit harder… #00:18:38-5#
respondent: Yes. #00:18:39-7#
interviewer: …and then they could build either a large one or maybe just a wall of them. #00:18:45-7#
respondent: And (incomprehensible) make it robust. #00:18:47-1#
interviewer: Yeah. And all this lighting and cables and everything I’ve got around is not very practical for kids. #00:18:54-3#
respondent: Hmm. But there must be a way where it would be safer, you know, in case of a meltdown. #00:19:02-3#
interviewer: Yeah. If I could encase all that electronics within a single object, I think that would be good. #00:19:08-6#
respondent: I hope she’s not bothering David (referring to Lucy in next room). (laughing) Wow, okay. Thanks for letting me test this. #00:19:19-4#
interviewer: Thanks for coming in. #00:19:20-2#
respondent: But it’s very, it’s, it’s very interesting cause it’s revealing a lot of um, um, things, I mean I think that the adults will give you some feedback on what – it actually triggers some thinking about our own thinking. #00:19:35-5#
interviewer: Mmm. Yeah, absolutely. #00:19:38-7#
respondent: You know, um, because I think that I am so involved. And I’m not, I’m not very happy with that because I find that the struggle then is to go back to the primal instincts, because that’s where I find, um, it is most beneficial to do creative work. Whereas I’m so evolved, that I’ve become, you know, trained. So as a musician I’m trained to listen to sound sets. #00:20:08-1#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:20:08-7#
respondent: And then I’m playing the sound sets. And I notice it, you know, the, the environment. But I have consciously seeked it out, in preference for a mission. So, it’s very interesting, because it relates to my relationship with her (referencing Lucy). She’s trained to relieve me from triggering environments, but I, most often than not ignore her, because I’m trained, you know, I am trained to remain there until I fall apart. So then there must be a way to bridge the two… anyway. Like if I’m in an important meeting. What do I do when she’s alerting me? What do I say? So this is a very, um, in fact you can use this experiment for a lot of different situations. #00:21:12-3#
interviewer: Mmm. Yeah, I had a couple of therapists that came in, said that they would use this kind of thing to get to other tasks or processes. It would be just like a way of getting started with a dialogue of some sort. #00:21:28-6#
respondent: Yeah. I mean a lot of times people who need therapy, just need that little window to open up. You know. This is great for adults. I would love it. Never been to therapy though, but. (laughing) I would love this, because you just sit inside and it makes you think. #00:21:47-6#
interviewer: Yeah, I think the, the size of it is really successful – it doesn’t feel claustrophobic, but it feels quite contained and safe. #00:21:56-4#
respondent: You’re a larger person (incomprehensible). Do you ever come in here yourself and just use this? (laughing) #00:22:05-2#
interviewer: Yesterday I had a migraine, but I had to come in anyway, because I had studies, and – so when I get migraines I can see light, it hurts. And I just lie down in here and it was great. #00:22:15-5#
respondent: Yeah, just… you know, switch off everything and lie down. Even just with that sound. #00:22:20-5#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:22:21-2#
respondent: You need a few blankets and things here. Yeah, I’m actually going to make something similar to this without lights and just blankets. Lots and lots of blankets. That would be then, the final… I like this. I need, I need some help with electronics though. Do you have any idea how I can record Lucy’s heartbeat? I put a recorder on her, but it didn’t work. So I bought a stethoscope, and I’m gonna try to remove that piece and stick it to a microphone, but I don’t know… #00:22:58-6#
interviewer: Ahh… You could possibly… there’s a type of microphone called a contact microphone. Have you seen them? #00:23:06-0#
respondent: Yes. They, I’ve been used, I mean it’s been used on me before when doing filming, so that… #00:23:12-3#
interviewer: That would be the type – I would try that even straight onto Lucy. But if not, you could put the end of the stethoscope into it, and it – so contact microphone really picks up vibration rather than, like, the sound and sound waves in the air. #00:23:25-0#
respondent: Oh, okay. #00:23:26-5#
interviewer: Um, that would, that’d be the first thing I would try. They’re very cheap. You can get them really cheap. They may even have some in the Resource Centre. #00:23:36-1#
respondent: (incomprehensible) That’s a great idea, why didn’t I think of it. Okay (laughing) thank you! That’s why we need people who are experts. #00:23:46-6#
interviewer: Oh, I’m not an expert, but I’ve, yeah. I’ve used them before. #00:23:51-1#
respondent: Alright. Well this is great. I could sit here forever. So those things, ummm… #00:23:57-9#
interviewer: They’re cameras. #00:23:59-5#
respondent: Oh, so you’ve like, you’re… #00:24:01-7#
interviewer: We’ve got three cameras. #00:24:02-7#
respondent: So you film the children? #00:24:04-7#
interviewer: Yep. And… #00:24:06-5#
respondent: How do you get, um, approval for filming? #00:24:08-6#
interviewer: Ahh, that was part of my ethics approval. Um, and so that, I have to be very careful with that film – I can’t show it to anybody other than my supervisors… #00:24:19-1#
respondent: And the examiners. #00:24:20-4#
interviewer: …and the examiners. And really all it’s for is for me to have a look at what happened at certain times and kinda track those interesting moments. #00:24:30-3#
respondent: Yes. Do you also look for facial expressions and (incomprehensible) it’s very complex. #00:24:36-7#
interviewer: Yeah. Not so much. #00:24:38-5#
respondent: So it’s just the action that, and the reaction. #00:24:42-9#
interviewer: Yep. And when they engage with the parent, um… #00:24:47-7#
respondent: Conversations. #00:24:49-5#
interviewer: Yep. Social communication. #00:24:53-4#
respondent: Oh, okay. Yeah, because that’s part of it, isn’t it – the social communication. (pressing buttons) I love this. And what sound patch did you use, a xylophone? Glockenspiel… #00:25:13-0#
interviewer: Ahh, yeah, it’s a xylophone. #00:25:14-5#
respondent: (laughing) I love that. (pressing buttons) #00:25:18-4#
interviewer: It has quite a nice tone. It’s immediate, but not too… you know, abrupt. #00:25:28-8#
respondent: Gentle. #00:25:29-9#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:25:30-1#
respondent: (pressing buttons) Thanks Scott! I’m sorry, I’m going to play with this forever (laughing). #00:25:40-2#
interviewer: (laughing) That’s alright. #00:25:41-4#
respondent: How many of the, the research group have come here? (leaving space) #00:25:44-5#
interviewer: Umm, Cecilia’s seen it, umm Michael has seen it… (leaving space) (incomprehensible) #00:26:05-4#
(conversation continues outside dome space) #00:26:02-6#
—
Psychologist
interviewer: So this is what the kids just walk straight in to this and I don’t give them any directions, I just let them play and um, with what they like. And they come in with their parent – they’re, they’re all between about 3 and 6. #00:00:33-5#
respondent: Right. And so they can just press the button and so on or do whatever. #00:00:38-5#
interviewer: Yep. #00:00:38-7#
respondent: You want me to just… #00:00:39-9#
interviewer: Go for it. #00:00:40-4#
respondent: (laughing) #00:00:42-7#
interviewer: Oh. (incomprehensible) Sorry. (leaving dome to reset computer system) #00:00:46-9#
respondent: It’s alright. #00:00:48-0#
interviewer: (resetting computer system) Ahh, try again. #00:01:03-3#
respondent: Okay. (pressing buttons) #00:01:06-3#
interviewer: (incomprehensible) #00:01:09-5#
respondent: Nothin’. #00:01:10-5#
interviewer: Okay. I’ll just try (incomprehensible) #00:01:13-5#
(system resets) #00:01:27-7#
respondent: (pressing buttons) Oh, it’s doing stuff now. Oh, cool. (pressing buttons) And does this – it just sits on this does it (pointing to interface)? #00:01:58-0#
interviewer: It does, yeah. #00:01:58-7#
respondent: (pressing buttons) Oh it’s good. (pressing buttons) #00:02:38-4#
interviewer: (coughing) Sorry. So this is how I’ve programmed it to work: umm, when the kids first press any button, it, the whole tent changes to the colour of the button they press. If they keep moving around, um, it will keep changing the whole tent colour. Um, the tent and this object are both divided up into segments… #00:03:04-6#
respondent: Uh huh. #00:03:05-3#
interviewer: …and so if a child stays within the same segment, over time – this one will be easy to show you (pressing buttons) – it becomes, it has a relationship with the position of the buttons and the light on the tent. So they can do that for a while, but then after a few more presses it becomes random. And I’m really interested in that point, whether, if the child’s realised that they’re controlling it and then I take that control away, do they try and re-engage with it in some way, do they like, move around it, or do they say something to their parents like “it’s not working”, um, something that shows me that they sort of understand that that control is gone. #00:03:55-4#
respondent: Okay. #00:03:56-3#
interviewer: Um, so if they move back to another panel, it gets reset again. #00:03:59-7#
respondent: Right. (pressing buttons) And so have some of them tried it out so far? #00:04:14-0#
interviewer: I’ve only had one typical kid come through this morning. Um, he’s 5 and he seemed really focused on the music, more so than the lights. Um, so he just kind of walked around (pressing buttons sequentially) doing that. Um, I’ve got like a button on my computer where I can just switch it to random immediately. #00:04:37-2#
respondent: Okay. #00:04:38-1#
interviewer: Um, which I probably should have done earlier on with him, just to see what happens when he’s not able to do that anymore. Um… yeah. #00:04:49-9#
respondent: Okay. (pressing buttons repetitively) Mmm, so it kind of encourages you to go to the next… #00:05:28-2#
interviewer: Yeah. I found, I, this is the third interface that I’ve used for this space. The first two were, well the first one was just blocks that moved on top of the table. Um, there was a camera inside that tracked its position, which changed the position of the light on top, and that was way too abstract for the age group I was working with. #00:05:52-5#
respondent: Mmm. #00:05:53-1#
interviewer: And then the second one was, like, just wooden pegs in holes and a similar idea; depending on which peg was in a hole (incomprehensible) the position of the light. And, um, that was still a bit too abstract, but I had an autistic boy who totally grasped that pattern-making thing, but he got very kind of caught up in it. #00:06:15-4#
respondent: Mmm hmm. #00:06:16-1#
interviewer: He, and so he got bored quite quickly. Once he sort of made a few patterns, he was like “I’m done” and, and left and so I’m kind of looking at ways of re-engaging once that initial kind of pattern-making interest is gone. #00:06:33-1#
respondent: Yeah. (pause) Um, yeah, so, the 3 to 6 year olds… how long would you, are you thinking that they would spend playing with this, or…? #00:06:51-3#
interviewer: The last couple of iterations, they’ve probably been in here for 10 to 15 minutes, I don’t, I’m not controlling the time that they’re in here. Um, (incomprehensible) of that time and left. Um, the autistic boy – he was probably only in here for somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes. Um… what age group do you work with? #00:07:18-3#
respondent: Umm, a range, like, the youngest I have at the moment is two and a half. #00:07:25-9#
interviewer: Okay. #00:07:26-4#
respondent: Um, up to… with autism, up to probably the oldest one I’d say I think he’s about 10. #00:07:35-7#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:07:36-4#
respondent: So, mainly, yeah, toddlers and primary school. I don’t really see any in high school at the moment. #00:07:45-8#
interviewer: Yep. Um, I’ve had my son come in here – he’s only 18 months – and he would just mash buttons (pressing button quickly), like just keep pressing the same button over and over again. But what I kind of find with adults is that they look for, probably more spatial relationships; they press a red button here and then a red button over here. #00:08:08-3#
respondent: Oh, okay. #00:08:09-7#
interviewer: So I’m wondering if you know of any developmental change which – like it seems like very small children are just, they’re just happy to press the same thing over and over again, but at some point, that stops being so interesting and we look for different kinds of relationships between things? Is there something that… #00:08:34-7#
respondent: Um… do you mean what age it sort of changes, do you think? #00:08:40-6#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:08:41-2#
respondent: Um… (pause) probably preschool I think. Preschoolers would probably be more interesting in the musical side of it. #00:08:57-5#
interviewer: So, sort of 4 and 5 year olds. #00:09:02-1#
respondent: 3 and a half, 4 years olds, I think. I could see them sort of, yeah (pressing buttons), so more interested in the… (incomprehensible) I’m not 100% sure on that (laughing). Um… the thing with autistic kids too, cause it’s a spectrum, um, you know your more high functioning autistic child might, would present completely different to one who’s kind of at the more extreme end of the spectrum as well. And… (pause) cause I think, yeah, even some older, like, cause I see some kids who are quite severely autistic as well, um, they’re around that 6, 7 age, and they’re non-verbal – like I think they would find this quite interesting. Especially the sound component of the, and also the lights. Yeah. #00:10:21-8#
interviewer: Um, is this kind of space something, I mean it’s obviously a prototype – there’s cables and stuff everywhere, but, like the idea of the space – is this something that you can imagine would useful in your practice for working with these kids? #00:10:39-0#
respondent: Um… it takes up quite a bit of floor space. Um… possibly. Like, but then what’s, is the function of it, um, to engage them in something, do you know what I mean? Like, or it, like, cause I kind of look for things that are also gonna be some sort of teaching tool. So with this, like I could see that, um, it would be good for teaching children to isolate their pointer finger, cause that’s an important thing. #00:11:23-2#
interviewer: Yep. #00:11:24-3#
respondent: Um, you know being able to press buttons and things like that, so that would be good, because I do work with some kids who, um, have trouble, like, their fine motor skills are really poor, so that would be good. Um… (pause) how else would I use it… I mean I guess it’s also, from a sensory perspective, it’s quite engaging, um… I think you could use the space in other ways. Like, this would be good just to get them in, and then you’d have to sort of think: well, how else are you going to use the space? Like, cause you could do other activities in here with them as well, like bring other things in. #00:12:18-1#
interviewer: So there’s more of a kind of ambient space. #00:12:22-9#
respondent: Yeah, yeah. To do therapy in, yeah. Cause I’m an Occupational Therapist, so I’m looking at, um, developing certain skills in kids, even if it’s – I mean, it would also, I think, be quite good, I think, um, cause a lot of kids on the spectrum, they don’t have great social skills, so if you kind of get them to do some requesting type things, so… um, I think that would work quite well. #00:12:58-6#
interviewer: That, that was really the idea, the driver of that idea of taking away control… #00:13:02-9#
respondent: Yeah. #00:13:04-5#
interviewer: …um, to sort of motivate them to either engage with the system again, or better still, the parent who’s in here with them. #00:13:13-6#
respondent: Yeah. And especially with non-verbal kids, you could use it, I guess, to develop some language stuff with them, like, so that they have, you could teach them so they have to request more, even, even if they can’t say, if you’re using a sign for more, you know, you could teach them that, use that, go, “oh, you want more”. So I think they would be engaged with it and even… yeah, some other kind of gestures. Um… yeah, so, isolating your pointed finger, that’s, um, I use that because pointing is an important communicative gesture, so it would be good for that, um… Other gestures are like “bye” (showing gesture), um, anything that’s sort of getting them interacting with you, um, so I’m trying to think how you could use that. Like, clapping, I don’t know if, um… like if the, the child did something where you were, you know, clapping, as a kind of way of showing, “oh, you did something, you made something happen”. #00:14:35-7#
interviewer: Yep. Um, this version of the interaction is, is kind of, it, the change of colour is very intense compared what it has been in the past. Um, I have a slight concern that it’s a bit overwhelming for, maybe some kids who don’t like visual stimulus so much. (pressing button) Especially the changing colour of the whole tent. #00:15:02-8#
respondent: Yeah, I think it would depend… um… cause it’s quite different to like, it’s not something that they’re, that’s, their kind of exposed to before if you know what I mean? Like, it’s kind of a whole new thing. Like, that red’s quite intense I find personally, whereas I prefer (pressing button) like a, kind of a dull… (laughing) #00:15:29-1#
interviewer: Yeah. #00:15:30-4#
respondent: Whether that’s just, you know, cause everyone’s got their own sensory stuff. Um… but even that, you know, sometimes a bit of exposure to things that you’re not so… I don’t know if it’d, yeah, some children it might, I don’t know. The thing I find with most children on the spectrum, the sensory stuff that really bothers them the most is actually more the noise type things. #00:16:02-3#
interviewer: Okay. #00:16:02-6#
respondent: Um, cause I haven’t had too many that have (incomprehensible) sort of like covered their eyes or anything. They actually like a lot of visual stimulation I find. #00:16:14-3#
interviewer: Okay. #00:16:14-9#
respondent: So I think it might actually be quite more appealing than off-putting. Cause they do a lot of stuff like hand flapping in front of their eyes and, um, they avoid a lot of eye contact, but they’ll do like a side… kind of, I can’t even do it, like, they’ll look at you from the side of their eyes and things. #00:16:34-3#
interviewer: I have a boy in the last study who, um, seemed like he was quite similar to that – he just looked straight down at what he was doing and I didn’t think he was aware of any of this at all – but, I do interviews with them afterwards and he said “yeah, yellow pegs make the yellow lights go on”. He was totally aware of what was going on, he just didn’t look like it. And I, um, I have, there’s a, a woman here who has Aspergers, who is doing a PhD and I chatted to her about it and she said that’s kinda not surprising if he was kinda taking in too much visual input, that’s his way of filtering it out. He just kind of, he knew what was going on, he just didn’t look straight at it, because it was too much for him. #00:17:14-7#
respondent: Mmm. #00:17:16-0#
interviewer: Um, which was pretty interesting. So in terms of the sound, um, the feedback I had from both the autistic kids last time was that this, this kind of water running and birds seem to, they seem to really enjoy that – it felt like it was in a different space. Um, not necessarily like in a concrete room. It felt a bit… like they’re in their own environment of some sort. #00:17:49-8#
respondent: Yeah, no, it’s very calming. Yep. I think it’s nice in that sense. Um… yeah, I guess it’s just – you know, what’s the purpose of… that’s how I would of put it, like how would I use this space, like what… #00:18:15-4#
interviewer: Is it quite task-oriented approach that you have? #00:18:20-1#
respondent: Yep. Um… a lot of what I do is play-based as well, so to kind of engage kids, um, so I like that kind of aspect, like it is sort of quite playful in that sense, like, a toy, but a little bit different. Um, so yeah, we, what I try to do is, I’ll find a toy, but it has to have, I’ll, I’ll embed it with the skill that I’m working on, so whatever that toy might be, for example… I don’t know, I guess we use toys that you press and they pop up and things like that, you know, so that the function might be to work on isolating their pointer or their, you know, pincer grip or whatever it might be, plus it’s also getting them to engage with another person and… #00:19:16-1#
interviewer: Yep. #00:19:16-8#
respondent: …you know, just reciprocate that joint engagement and that type of thing. So, that’s how I would look at it. And I think finding an environment where a kid feels happy to be and they want to be, that’s half the battle with some kids with autism, cause if they don’t wanna be with you, they don’t like… yeah… if they don’t like the space they’re in, or the person that they’re with, you basically can’t really do much therapy with them. So, I could see it, kids wanting to be in like a nice calm little space like this. See the other thing I, we use, I know, I’ve got one little boy who really likes what we call ‘lycra tunnels’, so he quite likes being encased. #00:20:07-5#
interviewer: Yep. #00:20:08-1#
respondent: Cause a lot of them like, um, it gives a bit of deep pressure but, um, he quite – so it’s literally a piece of lycra, you know, a proper tunnel, so you can crawl through it, but I just use it to put over his head and I have it over my head at the same time, so it keeps… #00:20:26-1#
interviewer: Oh, okay. #00:20:27-1#
respondent: …him and me together and he really likes it. #00:20:29-7#
interviewer: Yeah, right. #00:20:30-6#
respondent: Um, but then, yeah, so I could see a kid like him quite liking this. Um… (pause) they like swings as well – that’s the other thing. So… (incomprehensible) #00:20:52-5#
interviewer: Do you have, um, any experience with sensory rooms at all? #00:20:56-9#
respondent: A little bit, yeah. So we’ve, um, the practice – I’ve got my own practice here, but I don’t do, I don’t have a sensory room, um, cause I do a lot of kids who aren’t on the spectrum as well. But at the practice I work at at um, Liverpool, the OT there, she’s got a sensory room there. #00:21:17-1#
interviewer: Is that, kind of, in the vein of the Snoezelen room, where there’s just a lot of, like, sensory objects and it, kind of self-directed around the space? #00:21:28-1#
respondent: Umm… no. It’s very therapist directed in terms of, you can take stuff down and put it away. #00:21:36-9#
interviewer: Okay. #00:21:38-0#
respondent: And things can be locked up. But other stuff is kind of, like we’ve got a lot crash mats and things like that, cause the kids wanna you know, um, jump off… I actually don’t particularly like the setup, but it’s not mine (laughing). But I like the fact that you can take swings down and put them up, cause there’s a frame. Um, there’s also, she’s got a, roller thing, so you know Temple Grandin? #00:22:06-9#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:22:07-4#
respondent: She invented this thing, it’s like a squeeze machine… #00:22:10-9#
interviewer: Ahh yep, yep. #00:22:11-5#
respondent: …so they’ve got that as well. Cause again, there’s some kids like that deep pressure and find it quite calming. Um, I’ve seen other sensory rooms over the years, like I went to a school recently and look at a boy who, um, has got all these behavioural issues and he… his school had setup – it’s a special needs school – they had a sensory room there with like vibrating bed and ball pit and… #00:22:41-3#
interviewer: Okay. #00:22:41-7#
respondent: …um, a big screen, which I’m not sure what they – I think they were just doing YouTube on that. Umm… #00:22:52-7#
interviewer: It, is there any kind of thought that goes into setting those up, or is it just like, get as many different sensory experiences in them as possible? #00:23:02-2#
respondent: I think, um, they get advice from different people about what, you know, kids on the spectrum seem to like. Um, so… (pause) I think it’s all about calming kids basically. #00:23:23-9#
interviewer: Yep. #00:23:24-5#
respondent: So the things like the vibrating bed, a lot of them might just lie on there and get, you know, feel quite calm – and the swings as well, like the swing in that room as well. #00:23:36-2#
interviewer: I haven’t, I haven’t actually been to one myself, but from the bit of research on them, it seemed like a really expensive proposition to setup a sensory room. #00:23:47-7#
respondent: It is. #00:23:48-6#
interviewer: I think the companies that, that make things, that they’re very, very expensive… #00:23:53-7#
respondent: Yep. #00:23:54-3#
interviewer: …for what they are really. Um, so the idea of this, when I first started, was to make something mobile and affordable, um, in my Honours year I worked with Aspect, um, with their Building Blocks early intervention people, and um, I made some sensory devices for a girl – a two year old girl – that were really successful, um, and I was hoping to keep working with them. So a lot of these decisions, like the height of this, it’s to fit within a classroom or like just a school room, and um, and everything can be packed up and moved around. #00:24:31-5#
respondent: Yep. No, that’s a good idea. #00:24:34-0#
interviewer: And is relatively cheap. Um, so yeah, what I found when looking at those commercial objects were they were just crazy expensive. #00:24:45-0#
respondent: Yeah. I’m sure they would be. #00:24:47-6#
interviewer: Um. This is the last round of studies with kids in them, that I will be doing for my PhD anyway, um, but I’m hoping to create a sort of proof of concept, um, modular box that could be stacked to make one of these spaces, and within that would be the lighting and sound and so you could have, like, a couple of them or you could have a bunch of them to make a, a space. #00:25:16-5#
respondent: Okay. #00:25:18-9#
interviewer: (incomprehensible) something kind of affordable and maybe even could be in the home as well as the school. #00:25:27-1#
respondent: Yeah. I could see it working well, like, like I was saying, for some kids, even just getting them to be with you and, um, you know, teaching them some of those skills, like ‘staying’ and ‘attending’ to something would be really worthwhile. Like, this sort of environment, if they are drawn to it and want to be in there. Because even though it’s quite stimulating in one sense, it’s also not that stimulating if you know what I mean? Once the lights, you know, once they stop pressing buttons or whatever and there’s just one light, it’s kind of, um, a nice sort of space to, yeah, calm sort of space, without too many distractions. Umm… so does this move, or is it you know, something… (pointing to interface) #00:26:30-6#
interviewer: It’s not designed to move. It can be moved. Um, but yeah, I wanted to set this up to sit in the middle, but there’s no reason you couldn’t put it somewhere else. #00:26:41-9#
respondent: Yeah. Cause I could see, like, you could set up, like, a little, um… you know, another table, where you can do, (incomprehensible) like OT’s, we work on getting kids doing table top activities, cause that’s where a lot of the fine motor and (incomprehensible) having to attend to an activity, it’s kind of more that you’re doing that at a table. So you could put, like, I could be here (pointing to interface) if I was using this space, I’d want somewhere, like another little table next to it (gesturing beside interface), where I had my other activities going on. But this would be a good introduction (pointing to interface) like, to get the kid in to begin with and see what they like. But… um… cause I think it would, like it’s in, interesting to begin with and then it does reach its kind of limit of, um, like it’s not too distracting if you know what I mean? #00:27:44-9#
interviewer: Mmm hmm. #00:27:45-3#
respondent: Cause a lot of kids on the spectrum, they are actually quite visual as well. So that’s why a lot of them, if you produce anything that’s kind of, um, like they love iPads and things like that, which I don’t use too often – I rarely use it actually. #00:28:08-1#
interviewer: Is there a reason you don’t use iPads? #00:28:10-3#
respondent: Um… I just think that they can obsess over them. And that’s the thing with some kids on the spectrum: if you introduce, you never want to introduce anything that they like too much – like, you want them to like something, but not love it (laughing). You know what I mean? #00:28:29-2#
interviewer: Yep. #00:28:29-6#
respondent: Because then you just get into a battle having it, if you then have to take it off them. So, like, a lot of kids