3 Making: RDE Design

interviewer: Um. Yep. So… #00:00:08-2# 

respondent: Is this on? #00:00:08-9# 

interviewer: Yeah, should be. I’ll just double-check. #00:00:11-9# 

respondent: Hello. Am I recording? #00:00:14-8# 

interviewer: Yep. So… I kinda aim to be about 20 minutes, the interview. Um, if we go over it doesn’t really matter. The way that I’ve structured it so far, is to kinda talk through my process of getting to this point, which is like what the exhibition is all about, just laying out my process. And then I want to ask a few questions about your process kind of, and how that compares to mine. And, yeah. That’s about it. #00:00:44-9# 

respondent: Mmm, oh, okay, great. #00:00:47-1# 

interviewer: Um, so it’s probably easiest to start by showing you where I ended up, which is with this dome space. Um, it’s, uhh, an environment for… I developed it with autistic children in mind, young autistic children. And I have done observational studies with 3 to 5 year old autistic children and neurotypical children in the space. And they come in here with their parent, which just happened to always be a mother. Um, and the idea of the space is to facilitate social interaction between the parent and the child. So the technology is just there to sort of trigger some sort of connection between the two. #00:01:39-1# 

respondent: Mmm hmm. (pause) What does this one do? (referring to interface) #00:01:52-6# 

interviewer: Actually, I’m quite interested to see how people would interact with it before I tell them how it works. #00:01:57-6# 

respondent: Okay. (pause) For some reason the little doorway, like a mouse hole. (touching interface) Igloo things. I just want to put my hand in that hole. (laughing) I will. (laughing) Oh, okay. (pause) For some reason I’m attracted towards the hole rather than the buttons. #00:02:22-2# 

interviewer:  Okay.  #00:02:22-4# 

respondent: I wonder why that was. (long pause while pressing buttons) What does this one do? Oop! #00:02:34-9# 

respondent: (very long pause in conversation, continues pressing buttons) #00:03:27-4# 

respondent: Mmm, reminds me of a lullaby. It is quite beautiful, those lights. (pause, pressing buttons) Will you play with me? (laughing)  #00:03:52-3# 

interviewer: I’ll tell you how it’s programmed to work. So, um, I did a couple of other versions of the interface, which I’ll talk about in a sec. But they, they were quite, the way that they controlled the lighting was very abstract. And so, what I’ve tried to do with this is to make it really clear, the relationship between the interaction and the response to the space. So, the children, particularly being young children, they get a sense of their control. And so when they first press a button, the entire tent changes to be that colour. #00:04:25-0# 

respondent: Right. #00:04:26-6# 

interviewer: Um, and there’s only 3 options: red, yellow, and green. And it doesn’t matter which button you press, it will always start by lighting the whole tent. But if you stay within the same panel, (pressing buttons) it will eventually become mapped to that panel. #00:04:40-8# 

respondent: Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah, I did notice there was less light. #00:04:43-5# 

interviewer: So the mapping becomes more complex. Um, I did find that that relationship seemed to be too complex for most people to get, even adults. Um, but the idea was that if they remain the same place, so repetition and repeated behaviours are, well, problematic for autistic children. #00:05:08-6# 

respondent: Yeah. #00:05:09-0# 

interviewer: If they continue on, it, the mapping stops completely. #00:05:13-2# 

respondent: Oh, right, it starts to get lessened. #00:05:15-5# 

interviewer: So, it’s, mapping is totally removed and the idea with that comes from educational psychology and something that they call sabotage. So taking away that control once it’s been established to try and get them to show some sort of behaviour. So the best example I’ve had of it, was a boy who came in, an autistic boy, and he just walked around the tent doing this. He immediately figured out it was scale and he went around and around and around.  #00:05:47-7# 

respondent: Yeah. #00:05:48-5# 

interviewer: And I’ve got like the sabotage switch on the computer, so I sabotaged that control and he immediately sat down and he said to his mother, like, ”Can you try that” or “Can you help me?”. And so it was totally obvious that he was trying to get back that and, like vocalising, I guess, internal sort of thoughts, which was really interesting. Even when I gave him back control, he continued that type of interaction, rather than going back to repetition. #00:06:21-6# 

respondent: Just a kind of repetitive behaviour. #00:06:22-4# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:06:22-9# 

respondent: How interesting. So then you’ve, rather doing it from the… manually, you’ve built it into the logic somehow? #00:06:32-0# 

interviewer: Yeah, it’s built into the logic, um, but if they don’t quite ever get there themselves I have the ability to sabotage them externally. #00:06:40-0# 

respondent: Yeah, right. #00:06:40-6# 

interviewer: So I’ve got cameras in here, which are used for filming the studies and I observe them from outside the space. #00:06:47-9# 

respondent: Right. Okay. And so are you thinking that this be something you could use on an ongoing basis or only when parents and children are around um, other kinds of settings? #00:07:00-2# 

interviewer: Um, I, well my honours work… um, actually I’ll talk you through how I got here. (leaving dome space) I did a project for Honours which worked with an autism institution that I was hoping to work with again for PhD, but for a bunch of reasons it didn’t happen. So when I started this, I built it with um, a school in mind, um, so it’s mobile, it fits within the school room. Um, it’s definitely a prototype, but it was designed to be packed up and moved from place to place. #00:07:44-7# 

respondent: Yeah. Yeah. #00:07:45-2# 

interviewer: And, so I kind of built it with the idea of either child and parent or child and teacher, in there. And I really wanted to sort of see how interactivity facilitates that kind of cooperative and social kind of communication. #00:08:05-3# 

respondent: So not between the children themselves, but between an adult and a child? #00:08:11-9# 

interviewer: I hadn’t got to that place myself, but I did interview therapists in there and they thought that it would be interesting to work with a group. Um, I never, I only had a small group of participants, so I didn’t quite get to that stage. But it would be interesting to have a group within there for sure. #00:08:31-2# 

respondent: Yeah, I’m just wondering, just, yeah, obviously the child and the parents’ behaviours or reasoning would be very different or their intention behind what they’re doing.  #00:08:40-5# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:08:41-1# 

respondent: I can imagine, so it’d be interested to see what comes out if you have children doing it themselves. #00:08:47-7# 

interviewer: I had that parent, child relationship going, because um, not being a therapist or psychologist, I thought that they have the best insight to the child. So I interviewed them afterwards to give me that kind of feedback. #00:09:01-1# 

respondent: Oh right, yeah. #00:09:01-8# 

interviewer: Um, things that I probably wouldn’t have spotted. Um, but yeah, it’d be great to continue this on, on a larger scale, working with psychologists and other people who could give me that kind of information and data. #00:09:19-5# 

respondent: And so did you um, how long does someone, one like parent, child stay in there? And just do like one session and then… #00:09:29-2# 

interviewer: It was totally self-directed.  #00:09:30-5# 

respondent: Yeah. #00:09:30-8# 

interviewer: Um, usually, they’d be in there between 10 and 20 minutes, um, and they came back 3 times for the 3 iterations of the interface. #00:09:41-3# 

respondent: All right, okay. #00:09:42-5# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:09:43-5# 

respondent: These are previous iteration? #00:09:44-6# 

interviewer: Yeah. The first one, I don’t know if you’ve seen the Reactable? #00:09:47-9# 

respondent: Mmm. Mmm hmm.  #00:09:49-5# 

interviewer: It’s basically that. The problem with that was there was no mapping at all between the space and the surface. And it was way too abstract to kind of make the connection. #00:09:58-9# 

respondent: Mmm. #00:09:59-8# 

interviewer: So I moved on to this like, child peg-in-hole type interface. And, it, there was some evidence that they, especially were making colour connections, but it was technically problematic because of the way the holes let light in. So if you put a red peg in and red light came in, it would think that the red peg over there and it was a bit troublesome.  #00:10:26-9# 

respondent: Yeah, right. It was also making light and sound effects? #00:10:29-7# 

interviewer: Yeah. I mean the response of the space worked basically the same way with each of these interfaces.  #00:10:36-0# 

respondent: Oh, okay. #00:10:37-8# 

interviewer: Although, with these 2 you could light each light individually. So on each panel there’s 3 lights, and you could have say red, green and yellow. Where as this one, there’s only one colour per panel. #00:10:52-0# 

respondent: Oh right, right. #00:10:53-2# 

interviewer: I simplified that down as well. #00:10:55-2# 

respondent: Yeah… (looking at flow diagram) So this is the logic? #00:11:06-3# 

interviewer: Yeah. That was the way I was thinking through… I had somebody help me with the programming at one point. And trying to communicate what I was after to him, it was quite an interesting process. #00:11:18-8# 

respondent: Okay. So this diagram resulted? #00:11:21-0# 

interviewer: Yeah. Basically a data flow. #00:11:23-5# 

respondent: Like a flow diagram. #00:11:24-9# 

interviewer: Yeah… (pause)  I was sort of thinking about the way a misbehaviour comes in and the motivation for the person inside the space. #00:11:39-9# 

respondent: So it’s more sort of an exploratory system? Like, it’s not like you’re sort of aiming to get something in particular, is it? #00:11:51-5# 

interviewer: Umm, I wouldn’t have thought so, but the autistic children particularly wanted… Like, they were looking for patterns, so they might you know, make little yellow and all red. I saw that a lot.  #00:12:07-8# 

respondent: Right. Then there’s the option is to disrupt the pattern once you’ve established it. #00:12:17-0# 

interviewer: Yep. #00:12:17-7# 

respondent: Which is synchronous with your, what did you call it, sabotage? #00:12:22-1# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:12:22-6# 

respondent: Yeah, right. Okay. Oh that’s interesting. Yeah, that’s like – cause, um, one of the areas I’m interested in is defamiliarising and making strange but with um, movement, patterns. So from the sort of dance training we’ll do, we do a lot of that kind of stuff. Where, um, yeah, you may have a particular way of moving or a habitual way of doing something and then you try and actually put a disruption in there. #00:12:50-6# 

interviewer: Yep. #00:12:50-9# 

respondent: Yeah, or an intervention, so same sort of thing I guess. #00:12:53-2# 

interviewer: Yeah, that actually – have you ever looked at activity theory? #00:12:56-2# 

respondent: Activity theory? #00:12:57-9# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:12:58-3# 

respondent: Only very briefly. #00:13:00-2# 

interviewer: I, I’m only looking at the very small part of it, but there’s this idea, when it was brought into HCI about the breakdown, so that like when something doesn’t work the way that you expect, the subconscious kind of becomes conscious to sort of, you know “What Went wrong? Why? How do I kind of make it work?” And that’s, that breakdown is what I’m trying to trigger with the sabotage. #00:13:28-2# 

respondent: Oh, okay, okay. That’s something that’s very much in Heidegger’s theories of disappearance, aren’t they? #00:13:34-7# 

interviewer: Yep, yep. #00:13:35-9# 

respondent: Yeah, which, also, yeah, cause I, some of the theoretical work I do is looking at habit as well and what’s an awareness and habit and stuff like that. Things that just happen automatically, and habitually, and then what can you actually intervene in that particular pattern. Yeah, or use the breakdown creatively? Is that what you’re trying to do here? #00:14:05-9# 

interviewer: Um, yeah, I use it to expose the I guess, ahh, like make the implicit explicit? Bring, give me something to sort of observe, whether it’s an action or a verbalisation. #00:14:26-4# 

respondent: So that was part of your research approach in terms of studying this? Or that’s also in the system as a way of actually creating… um, different events, opportunities? #00:14:42-0# 

interviewer: Um, it’s in the system in that I’m kind of using it as being analogous to disturb  – an external disturbance into the environment. So this is a cybernetic system. (referring to system model on ground) Um, and so, if this is the system being the tent, and this is the system being the person, kind of looking at what the output of the space is, setting their goal onto the space. If that output is sabotaged, how does that change the way that they respond and the way that they I guess interact again? Um… So yeah, it comes in I guess through the system design and the observation or the analysis. #00:15:39-9# 

respondent: Interesting, but this bit’s, which bits, so that’s from activity theory? #00:15:44-8# 

interviewer: Yep. And this is from cyber – well, a basic cybernetic system. #00:15:47-9# 

respondent: Yeah, but you’ve brought them together.  #00:15:49-2# 

interviewer: Yeah, I’m trying to connect the two. I’m not sure if I’ve done that totally successfully yet, but that’s where I’m playing around at the moment. #00:15:59-1# 

respondent: Mmm. So what was the key thing again in this one? This was, um, the way you’re using it. #00:16:07-2# 

interviewer: So the breakdown. The subject being a person, object is kind of objective. Um, and they want to change the current state of whatever they’re focusing their attention on, to something else. And the way or how they do that is done through an activity and actions and operations make connectivity. Operation side, of kind of the I guess subconscious is not a great word, but there’s an example of driving a car so kind of your actions of driving a car become I guess like body memory almost, until something goes wrong. So, like maybe a dog runs out in the road, and suddenly you’re very aware of all of the movements that you make to drive a car. Um, so all those operations become actions. #00:17:06-1# 

respondent: Oh, so this is to do with awareness? Conscious awareness of things? #00:17:15-9# 

interviewer: Yeah, that’s the breakdown. #00:17:17-1# 

respondent: That thing there? #00:17:17-7# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:17:18-2# 

respondent: All right. (pause) Mmm. So not so much chance operations, but… did you go back and sort of look at the various, or analyse the various kinds of breakdown that would tend to happen in here and then see whether you could leverage those or exploit them to some degree? #00:17:49-1# 

interviewer: The only exploitation I’ve had is the kind of ability to externally – this is my sabotage button – (pressing button) #00:17:57-9# 

respondent: (laughing) Great. #00:18:01-2# 

interviewer: So that I could externally trigger that sabotage. So what I need to do is go back through all that video and look at more closely how they responded, how they changed their interaction. There was like large changes, like the boy who sat down. But yeah, I need to go back through everything now. #00:18:19-3# 

respondent: Okay. #00:18:20-4# 

interviewer: Dig a bit deeper. #00:18:22-0# 

respondent: Yeah, cause it’s somewhat analogous just to I guess game player or any kind of interaction where you… ahh, or I guess with game, with the kind of game play theory isn’t that what you need to have some level of entry pint and challenge, but you don’t want to make it too great. Otherwise people would get frustrated, and bored, and that kind of stuff. Interesting so that you have to establish some sense of agency. #00:18:48-8# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:18:50-7# 

respondent: Yeah, but then when you did make that disruption, are you um… Do you have like a number of set patterns or something, or states that you oscillate between, or is it… When you did that, what did it do it sort of just went back? #00:19:05-3# 

interviewer: When it’s sabotaged, there’s no mapping at all. It’s essentially random. #00:19:10-7# 

respondent: Does it do anything? Oh, random? Okay. Oh I see, right. #00:19:13-6# 

interviewer: So there’s no way to control it, in any sort of meaningful way. #00:19:17-6# 

respondent: Oh, okay, so you don’t know which button’s going to trigger what. #00:19:20-1# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:19:20-4# 

respondent: Yeah. Mmm. So it’s more like there’s a disorientation. #00:19:24-0# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:19:25-0# 

respondent: That’s nasty. (laughing)  #00:19:27-0# 

interviewer: I would have loved to kind of get it to the point where they could somehow re-engaged the system. Um, but I just ran out of time. #00:19:35-8# 

respondent: Yeah, because it’s like that sort of… Yeah, I mean, yeah. I can’t imagine it, well not a computer crash, but certainly yeah, it’s gone a bit ballistic. (laughing) And then, yeah, it’s gotta show signs of some sort of like logic. #00:19:49-9# 

interviewer: I don’t think anyone was upset by it. They, almost always, were like, “So I’m doing something wrong?” Like, they sort of thought that it was what they were doing. Um, and so they’d try to figure out how to make the system work the way that they understood. #00:20:08-5# 

respondent: Would you then re-state it so that they would get some kind of… #00:20:14-2# 

interviewer: I’d give them back control at some point. #00:20:15-5# 

respondent: It’s just a matter of pressing something on there was it? #00:20:20-4# 

interviewer: Yep. Yep. #00:20:21-5# 

respondent: Yeah. Are you finding it’s … I’m just thinking also from some of the work I’ve done actually with George Khut and (incomprehensible)  where we created this, um, sort of, you know facilitated body experience thing we did that, um, yeah. Just having like disorienting activities, just to get you out of… We’re looking at more I guess you know, going into a sort of a… Like I like this as like a dedicated special space and using ideas around ritual and things to transition in and out. But, um, yeah the disorientation, but I remember one of the participants that came through, the first thing we did was put a mask on them and get them to take their shoes off. And then they had to walk, you know, we took them around in a circle and these stones on their foot so it was all just very sensory and non-sensory partially. Um and then afterwards, he confided that he had some sort of claustrophobia about having having things on his head, (laughing) but he hadn’t (incomprehensible) during the whole event so I was like “Okay.” Need to have that on a consent form, (laughing) on the release form. But um, yeah, with I guess autistic small children, whether there’s different sort of conditions you have to… well their behaviour is surprising sometimes in terms of the kinds of triggers you might put into things. #00:21:59-0# 

interviewer: Yeah, I mean, it’s, they’re also so, so different. I don’t think it’s possible to kind of get to that level of being able, yeah, like having that kind of control. Well, not control, but… #00:22:16-1# 

respondent: Well, just a mapping of it like that, to that granularity. #00:22:20-0# 

interviewer: Yeah. Um, they’re not just so of unique, but they’re quite extreme in their uniqueness as well. Um, so like one child might be so attracted to green, like everything needs to be green. And, um, I had an interesting response to the lights I’ve put under those, two interfaces, the kind of quality of that light was really overwhelming for some kids and like it just coming through the holes in the second interface. Um, there was a boy who couldn’t look directly at it, so he kind of looked away and that was his way of filtering out that sharp, bright light. Um, some kind of hint of sounds, some kind of of touch. It’s yeah, it’s really difficult. #00:23:08-9# 

respondent: How did that influence what you devised? #00:23:11-3# 

interviewer: Um, the only way I really kind of took it into consideration was thinking about finding a balance between a space that felt contained and safe, but not claustrophobic. So I wanted it to feel as though this environment was not a part of this kind of concrete, very strong room. It was its own space and so I’ve got the running water going around and soft floor, um, diffused light. #00:23:47-6# 

respondent: The diffused lighting is very lovely. And I’ve just realised, you’ve mirrored the dome, haven’t you. (laughing)  #00:23:55-9# 

interviewer: Yeah, yea. I had this conversation with George yesterday and he’s like “Oh, it’s a dome.” And I was like, so many people don’t realise it’s a dome and George went “Really?!” I was like “Yeah!” #00:24:05-2# 

respondent: It’s the dome, yeah. (laughing) Just working and seeing them both here with the doorway so distinct now. #00:24:11-5# 

interviewer: Yep. It’s funny isn’t it? Well I would say, probably 50% of the people don’t make the connection. #00:24:20-3# 

respondent: Yeah, right, between the outer, shell and one inside. #00:24:23-4# 

interviewer: It’s kind of an odd relationship cause you are looking down at something that you were inside and controlling. #00:24:30-3# 

respondent: Mmm hmm. In-between skins. #00:24:34-3# 

interviewer: Yeah, I don’t know if there’s a way to get around that, um, that kind of abstraction which I think was sort of problematic for the kids on each of these interfaces. Um, colour they understood. Sound was fine, but um position was not. #00:24:53-7# 

respondent: Right, oh okay. #00:24:54-8# 

interviewer: Um, particularly, because what you’re working with, which is in front of you, is controlling by something behind you, which is a bit strange. #00:25:02-9# 

respondent: Yeah. But then if you are working with someone in there it’s… Yeah are you creating things for yourself or for the other person as well, so maybe depending on where they’re oriented? Did there any comments around that? Whether it was… #00:25:22-7# 

interviewer: Umm… No. #00:25:26-4# 

respondent: Yeah. Cause it’s interesting in terms of the kinda, well, the social interaction or collaboration or… Yeah, do you start making music together or is it… What’s going on with, I’m pressing a red button, you’re pressing a green button. #00:25:45-9# 

interviewer: Yeah, I’d have really liked to explore that a lot more. #00:25:51-9# 

respondent: But you have video data that you have… yeah, all those sessions recorded. #00:25:58-4# 

interviewer: I’ve got key press data and videos. So this is what I recorded from inside the tent, inside the domes, 3 different angles. #00:26:06-6# 

respondent: Mmm, nice. It’s all very beautifully laid out… #00:26:12-4# 

interviewer: Thanks. #00:26:14-7# 

respondent: …constructed. It’s great. It’s great to see it actually something… This kind of research presented like this. #00:26:21-1# 

interviewer: I… When I was thinking about this I was quite nervous; I didn’t feel like it would present like a gallery context, even though this is the lab. It’s laid out like an exhibition but I don’t… Nothing’s finished. Everything is, even this is just a work in progress. But, yeah, I’m quite happy how that kind of lays out now. #00:26:44-7# 

respondent: And this, putting these diagrams on the floor, doing them like this. I like it. #00:26:50-3# 

interviewer: Um, something I did with George yesterday which I found really interesting was this tape that I’ve got laying here is kind of the stages of my process. So it went from I guess the original concept which grew out of my Honors work, to material studies, to a critical design. So this is something I was thinking through, not just to kind of deal with the thinking about the technology that I was working with, but I wanted to sort of think about what it would be like to be autistic. Um, and so I came up with these headphones which have microphones on them. And when you put them on, your sense of sound is very different. It picks up like scuffing shoes, and um, so I wanted to think about if you were quite particular in the way that you processed audio, how would that change the way that you interacted with this kind of environment?  #00:27:48-7# 

respondent: Can I try? Is it working? #00:27:52-9# 

interviewer: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think they’re working. (pause)  #00:27:56-0# 

interviewer: It usually picks up this. (scuffing shoes) Not on? #00:28:05-9# 

respondent: I can hear that. Can I normally hear that? #00:28:08-4# 

interviewer: Probably not quite the same way. It seems to exclude voice a little bit, and this music definitely disappears.  #00:28:17-4# 

respondent: (pause) I can hear that. I can hear music. Isn’t it to cancel something out did you say? #00:28:24-9# 

interviewer: Yeah, it, it’s kinda a little bit like wearing binaural headphones. (pause) It doesn’t sound different? Maybe I need to have a play with it. #00:28:38-4# 

respondent: (long pause, listening through headphones) Is that normally like that? Oh no, it is! It is, you’ve like yeah, is squeaky, okay. #00:29:00-3# 

interviewer: It is working? They might be a little bit quiet too. I might need to turn them up a bit.  #00:29:08-8# 

respondent: Are my shoes squeaking or is it this thing? You’ve done something, yeah, because now my shoes are squeaking. Yeah. (laughing) I’m like “What’s going on?” Not a squeaky shoe again. This one work? (pressing button) #00:29:29-1# 

interviewer: This is also a time when I was thinking about and making it a sort of a narrative space and so the music and lighting played out some sort of emotional change. But I thought, in the end that was far too complex. #00:29:42-5# 

(pause)  #00:29:50-6# 

interviewer: Um, so yeah, that became my, I guess my interface design came out of that, thinking through the problems with that kind of approach and then onto the interviews. #00:30:05-1# 

respondent: So how did you, so you, wanted to have some experience of being autistic potentially, but where did you get the… What were you drawing on to inform that? #00:30:16-4# 

interviewer: To end up here with the headphones? #00:30:19-4# 

respondent: Yeah, not the solution so much, but just um… I mean, do you have a relationship with an autistic child or did you have did you have some sort of immersion with them before or was it more… #00:30:31-1# 

interviewer: Me saying that I guess is very problematic. It’s more that I wanted to think about the sensory processing issues that are usually found in autism. Um so if you were finding it like, quite overwhelmed by sound, which many autistic people are, then what would that be like and how would interaction change? That was the idea. #00:30:59-8# 

respondent: Yeah. What did you find? #00:31:01-2# 

interviewer: Oh, this was really just a, kind of a exploration, a bit of critical study. Um, something I did, ended up in a gallery just to think through ideas. So I didn’t work with the children at all with this. Um, yeah it was just some of the early work. #00:31:19-7# 

respondent: So sort of playing with just the sensory perception? #00:31:26-1# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:31:27-7# 

respondent: Okay. That’s nice. (pause) What are you doing here? What’s that one? (pointing at photo of table interface prototype) #00:31:46-0# 

interviewer: Ahh, this was, this was a really early interface um, test. I had a camera underneath and the lighting was controlled by basically blocking out light on top so I was thinking “How could just use your hands or your body to control?” lighting. (laughing) As you can see it’s all held together with tape and cable ties. #00:32:09-2# 

respondent: (laughing) That’s what you’ve gotta do, huh? That’s the nature of it. Low-fi, yeah. No, it’s interesting to see how you’ve kind of stripped back to rudimentary materials, I guess. Like it’s so easy just to go into high-tech lighting solutions and things, but yeah, just your choice of fabrics and… It has this lovely muted quality to light diffusion. #00:32:41-0# 

interviewer: Everything I do has got a bit of Frankenstinian quality about it. Like I just, what have I got, how can I make this out of what’s around me? I mean, this is all shower curtain. #00:32:50-6# 

respondent: Oh right, okay. (pause) Yeah, well that’s useful too in terms of… I mean, someone could potentially, you could give them a kit or the modules for the sort of, as a sort of DIY thing and instantly you’ve got something you can work with. Yeah. Actually George came in and gave a lecture on Saturday and then um, cause I’m running the studio on sort of somatic user experience design. And just, part of it’s looking at the sort of impact of what’s going around us or interactions that you design on your body, the state you’re feeling today and things like that. And just, yeah, looking at that kind of arc that you might… If you’re creating effects like that. Like do you need to sort of ease in and out or (incomprehensible) abrupt? Like what’s the somatic sort of effect of things? So it’s interesting to see this, cause it’s very gentle. Yeah. Is that on purpose I imagine? #00:33:55-9# 

interviewer: Yeah, it is. Um, although when you press the buttons it’s very immediate, so this fade of colours is supposed to be inviting. Um, but I wanted the immediacy when you pressed the button to really make the connection as strong as possible. So there is a different quality to the lighting. #00:34:15-5# 

respondent: But how you’re filtering the light, too, through the fabric, so it’s softening it as well, even if it turns on straight away. #00:34:23-5# 

interviewer: Yeah, I’ve also got diffusers on each of the lights. I wanted to really um, make it as gentle…  #00:52:28-9# 

respondent: I’m just wondering whether you’ve, in terms of this you know, the effect, so you’ve got your lighting which makes an effect and how it impacts the somatic state, and whether you’re working, how much you’re working into that as part of this work? #00:34:49-1# 

interviewer: As part of what I’m doing? #00:34:50-0# 

respondent: Or maybe it’s another aspect to it, delve into a bit more. #00:34:54-6# 

interviewer: Um, it’s nothing that I’m dealing with directly. I guess… It’s obviously there, like I’m looking at how people respond. But I have no way of measuring their physiology. That’s something I did think about early on, like “How? What kind of biofeedback could I get?” But I thought that was too invasive with, especially autistic children.  #00:35:20-5# 

respondent: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be technology based. I mean it’s… yeah, but the you have the challenge of people actually articulating what they’re feeling. But if things are, I mean people can differentiate um, fundamental levels of whether something’s peaceful or it was very sudden and abrupt. You know. And sometimes you want that. Sometimes you want to surprise and shock or just make people alert. And other times you want to calm them down. So whether you talk about in sort of you know, psychological and physiological terms, or probably more I guess how I’d just normally talk about those kinds you know, visceral experiential effects. #00:36:04-4# 

interviewer: Mmm. Yeah, that may be something that comes from going through all the interview transcripts. Off the top of my head I can’t remember… #00:36:14-8# 

respondent: Yeah, or maybe just a dimension to consider um, because you’re looking at that. You know, there’s a loop there in terms of, well there is the interaction loop and also the sort of you know, sabotaging thing going on. But, um, yeah even in that behaviour, like it’s interesting to… Is there a satisfaction in doing that sort of repetitive stuff that’s a certain bodily quality? Or it’s hard to probably delve into all of that stuff. But um, yeah, I mean the sounds you’ve chosen as well, like I’m just wondering what um, the participants, how they respond to those on a maybe more… #00:36:57-7# 

interviewer: Certainly quality of life and that ambient, running water, birds, the chirping, that kind of stuff generally gave me feedback of “It’s a calming, like, welcoming space to be in.” Um, that was probably as much as I got. Um, although yeah, the feedback about the quality of the light that was inside of the interface was, I guess, a negative um, response which I hadn’t thought of when I set that up. #00:37:33-1# 

respondent: What were you looking for? Was there a certain like measure of success that you were looking for when people are um in there, or is more just open? #00:37:42-5# 

interviewer: Really it’s just more of a connection between the parent and the child. And that came from this Honours work. The second device that I did was this set of 3 vibrating joysticks. And the girl with autism was using that one and she made it work and immediately like looked up to her mother, which I didn’t think much about. But I was working with a therapist who said that was, well they call it joint attention, um, which is really important in development of any child, but particularly in autism. And that little idea is sort of how I ended up here, um, so how I encourage that connection between the parent and the child, or well, any caregiver and child. Um, and obviously, yeah, you could talk about that between children or between anyone. Um, but that would be how I measured the success of it – whether there was some sort of interaction between the two. #00:38:43-1# 

respondent: That seemed to be shared in some way? #00:38:47-4# 

interviewer: Yeah, yeah. #00:38:48-6# 

respondent: Uh huh. So have you got that down to some… #00:38:53-2# 

interviewer: I’ve got a few good examples of it happening, yeah, which was really nice. #00:38:58-1# 

respondent: All right, yeah. #00:38:58-8# 

(pause)  #00:39:05-8# 

interviewer: Oh, before I forget… so this is what I did with George yesterday which I thought was really fun, I got chalk and asked him about his own process. And I sort of drew that out on the floor and looked at how it, mapped, or it was different to mine. So I’ve taped out the stages of my process from I guess concept to material to prototype to iteration and data gathering. So I was wondering if you could um, kind of relate your process in similar terms; how that would look if I drew that out on the floor. #00:39:52-2# 

respondent: Umm. Oh, okay, I’ve just got a really, what would you call it? I don’t do just one kind of practice, so it’s… Yeah, um, just wondering which one to sort of bring in. Um. Yeah, maybe if we just speak in general terms. Umm. Yeah, I might just use an example that’s not um, is it okay if it’s not technology based. So um, I’ve probably done more stuff recently with performance, crafting a performance which is a bit different. But, just thinking through where I would have an initial idea or something I’m wanting to explore and um, and often I start with (incomprehensible) usually quite a strong image that comes to mind. So, um, that’s maybe got some kind of composition to it, but it’s an image that’s got some kind of I don’t know, some power that just makes me want to bring it to life in some way. Is this making sense? #00:41:11-7# 

interviewer: Yep. #00:41:12-1# 

respondent: And um, but then um, then I’ll sort of attack that from a couple of different ways. Like there’s obviously how I want the body to find a way of a language for the body, to sort of articulate that. And then, I work a lot with costume as well so, that’s sort of you know, not just to dress the body, but as a way of actually finding um, finding a creative language with costume as well. So it’s about the costume and body coming together or apart, or reconfiguring things within that. So I’d maybe start, and I do a lot of improvisation like improvised movement, but then trying to find particular… um, yeah, principles or language in that, that will then inform the performance itself. So I don’t know if this is really translating of course to this particular application context. (laughing) #00:42:10-2# 

interviewer: I was trying to think of what it would look like. #00:42:12-1# 

respondent: Oh, yeah, okay, how to draw that. #00:42:14-3# 

interviewer: So you have like an idea I guess? This is how I started George’s yesterday. He comes up with an idea first, like a thought bubble. #00:42:24-3# 

respondent: Okay, yeah, idea. And the idea, that idea because it is performance, there needs to be a body and it needs to be in space somewhere. #00:42:34-5# 

interviewer: Kind of like a physical exploration of the idea, or… #00:42:37-4# 

respondent: Yeah, there’s the physical sort of body exploration of the idea which obviously, but that then needs to be sited somewhere. So, you know, whether it’s a stage, but I prefer finding interesting performance sites, so more like site-specific. #00:42:52-7# 

interviewer: Are they parallel processes or are they the same process? #00:42:55-8# 

respondent: Um… they could, it depends what comes first, it’s sort of opportunistic in that way. But, so I, for example, um, I mean, yeah, just recently I did a performance at Carriageworks in this particular passageway, so that was set. So the site was set, and then um, I wanted to work with a sort of allegorical figure of horse-human, sort of, um, metamorphic kind of approach. But that was also carrying on from a previous project, so there’s still stuff to explore that I wanted to transport across to this new um, setting and context. #00:43:43-0# 

interviewer: Okay, so. #00:43:46-7# 

respondent: Yeah, so how would that… #00:43:47-4# 

interviewer: Maybe there’s a, let’s draw a stage with a person on it. #00:43:51-0# 

respondent: (laughing) Yeah, thank you! But then there’s like a previous work I guess that’s sort of informing that so there’s um, an idea image here that maybe, how do I show that, that’s coming, coming… It’s its own thing, but then it’s drawing on a previous work. #00:44:06-9# 

interviewer: A previous work that might be another stage, or another space with a person. #00:44:12-8# 

respondent: History, like, yeah. (laughing) But within that, there’s usually um, some kind of costume apparatus prop thing will get devised, which is then becomes, like I’m interacting with that to create new form, morphology, language. #00:44:34-2# 

interviewer: Does that come from the original idea or come from the physical and spacial exploration? #00:44:40-9# 

respondent: Um, usually more from here I think. Yeah, this is sort of the imaginary world. #00:44:48-9# 

interviewer: And so I guess that’s another parallel. #00:44:51-5# 

respondent: Yeah, we could draw um… What’s the, okay, some kind of, sort of like a costume look like. (laughing) I’m trying to think. Um, maybe just some kind of… maybe here (drawing) and um, a prop! What are these ones, these are like, okay, maybe this sort of crutch-like with a… Okay, this is this weird like horseshoe crutch thing. Does it look sort of crutchy? #00:45:37-7# 

interviewer: Yep. #00:45:38-6# 

respondent: Um… Yeah, so I mean they’re not, yeah, they’re not um, computational technologies, but they’re also, I’m looking at them as ways of changing my um, normal embodiment. So it’s just kind of, you know, this sort of thing going on. #00:45:58-9# 

interviewer: Yeah. #00:46:00-4# 

respondent: Change, and like cycles, is going, this kind of thing. Um, yeah, because I’m interested I guess in going beyond the sort of mundane human figure in the world, and finding… Well both are sort of imaginary spaces to sort of exist in. You know, creating these imaginary worlds but then materialising them back through movement and costumes and then creating this new language outside of just the kind of conventions of what we normally do. So um, that’s especially when I’m like doing a solo performance for example. But that could also be with a group of people, but this is I guess my very particular process in a way. I tend to find very generative. #00:46:52-5# 

interviewer: Yep. Do you have a measure of success in that kind of project? #00:46:58-0# 

respondent: (laughing) A measure of success? Oh, um…  #00:47:01-8# 

interviewer: Or do you even try? Is it part of the work? #00:47:08-9# 

respondent: There’s definitely always some kind of criteria, um, I think for any performance or like development of something artistic where you feel like you’ve created something interesting or worthwhile or feel like I’ve challenged myself beyond what I would normally do. So I think for this particular work I just did like a week ago… Um, yeah, all the this sort of setting and the costume came together and created a really strong image that I think had lots of um, sort of dimensions to it. And so, depending where you were watching from, which part you saw, you probably read the work quite differently. I guess I was partially interested in that and that I could have a very loose construct of things. But they’d evoke more than my initial thoughts I’d put into it. #00:48:07-7# 

interviewer: Yep. #00:48:08-1# 

respondent: Um, and that I somehow like actually in the performance felt um, a kind of creativity in doing that and a power in actually being present in that space. Like, I wasn’t just me, my everyday me, so yeah, if I was able to actually feel like I slipped into something else um, that had some kind of creative, generative thing going on. Then, yeah, I felt that was sort of like how I was measuring that. Yeah, so it’s more like a um… Yeah, because most of the day you’re just in this very mundane thing going on and just always, it’s trying to find ways to get out of that into more heightened, I guess, state of being. That has some kind of creative foment in that, and hopefully can affect other people as well. So, yeah. #00:49:05-0# 

interviewer: Do you try and capture that affect of other people at all? Do you… In say this example, would you get feedback from people, an audience? #00:49:17-2# 

respondent: It was something very ad-hoc in terms of people in terms of people that maybe came up and said something to me, um, you know Facebook likes, that sort of stuff. Um… but when I’m in this, because it is improvised performance, if there are people around, an audience, I will respond to them, but… um, or allow their presence to you know, influence what I’m doing. So, um, you know, in a way, if people are staying around and filming, you can sense that they’re actually engage, then that’s also something. It tells me something hopefully is going right. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I guess why I’ve brought up this particular example is because this whole thing around making strange which um… Yeah, in maybe more these sort of settings, I’m interested in how you can kind of bring that in to a design on making process. #00:50:15-6# 

interviewer: Mmm hmm.  #00:50:16-7# 

respondent: So that um, so that you have these somatic investigations that go on first, that try and break down your habitual, everyday ways of actually moving, thinking about moving, you know, how you experience movement, and trying to put a more imaginative, open up the sort of imaginative dimension in that. Yeah and the feeling, you can sort of feel your movement more and finding perhaps um, creative potential in very small things. You’ve talked about repetition, so it’s the repetition that then has that suddenly amplify into something else um, it hasn’t reduced down into a repetitive act, that’s actually opened up into something. So that’s interesting. Um, like, yeah, how long can something repeat and sustain until it tips over into something else. So, um, I think also like in performance too, if you’re working with that kind of thing, you can just take a very simple action but… um, I mean you could set yourself of just trying to repeat it exactly the same. How long can you do that for? Or see whether it starts to something emerges out of that particular gesture or not. So the, I mean, I try and embody whether performance methodology which is in some ways about cultivating a receptivity to that kind of um, generative process. So, yeah, rather than try and drive the action all the time, you kind of allow the body to sort of give you new material. #00:52:09-1# 

interviewer: Like, emerge. #00:52:10-7# 

respondent: Yeah, yeah. #00:52:12-3# 

interviewer: Okay. (pause) Great. I’m going to turn off the recording now because I’m going to have to transcribe all of this at some point. #00:52:23-1# 

respondent: (laughing) We’ve probably gone off topic here or something. #00:52:27-3# 

interviewer: That’s good! #00:52:28-3#

Back to top